*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Veloran]

Was it?

Yes, all life and the Lifestream itself was being killed. This isn't exactly consistent with what we see in Endwalker, but it was their situation then. The devastation was probably exacerbated as well due to the Ancient's creation magicks being hijacked, creating things like endless rains of fire and tidal waves engulfing the land. Regardless, by the end we're told the planet was completely ravaged and all but lifeless, which is what led to the second sacrifice to restore it and restart the Lifestream.

Besides, I think that misses the point. Zodiark isn't an engine you can just throw biomass at until it does what you want.

That is in fact exactly what Zodiark is. He needed massive amounts of aether to do the massive things they asked of him, and the Ancients were the biggest (and at that time only) reservoirs of aether around. This metaphysical, religious aspect you describe, where they needed to give up something intangible or spiritually important, is not part of the equation. It's very much true that they revered Zodiark given he was their only hope, but where you got the rest of this idea I have no clue.

[Cleretic]

The argument about 'but what if they were just trying to sacrifice a bunch of chickens to Zodiark, you don't know' honestly kind of misses the real point of the whole thing. The problem with the third sacrifice wasn't necessarily what they were killing for it (although again, the story doesn't play if it's not something big), but that it was the point when they were no longer willingly sacrificing themselves to help the planet, but rather forcing others to involuntarily sacrifice lives for their own comfort. The world is safe, peaceful and functioning again, and yet that is not enough. It's even going against the wishes of those sacrificed; remember that we heard from those souls in Mare Lamentorum, and they are still completely okay with their own sacrifices. The third sacrifice is for nobody's benefit but the surviving Ancients, as well as the point where the notion they might ever be satisfied is gone.

To a degree, you could say that the moment the third sacrifice was hatched was the point where the Convocation became the Ascians. The point where all reason beyond a selfish desire to want their perfect past back is gone; the point where Emet-Selch's stated view of 'I don't see you as people, so it's not murder' became their accepted view (and yes, I know that after a point he didn't 'really' believe that, but there was undeniably a point where it was true).

[KariTheFox]

This metaphysical, religious aspect you describe, where they needed to give up something intangible or spiritually important, is not part of the equation. It's very much true that they revered Zodiark given he was their only hope, but where you got the rest of this idea I have no clue.

I got it from the themes and motifs of the story being told, and the fact that the ancients created Zodiark the god who demands sacrifice to restore the world. Not Zodiark the aether-conversion engine that needs fuel to operate. Perhaps in some strictly literal sense, those two are the same. But they have a completely different thematic vibe. Basically, the story just starts falling apart on a metaphysical level if you postulate that you could run Zodiark on sacrificed chickens.

The argument about 'but what if they were just trying to sacrifice a bunch of chickens to Zodiark, you don't know' honestly kind of misses the real point of the whole thing. The problem with the third sacrifice wasn't necessarily what they were killing for it (although again, the story doesn't play if it's not something big), but that it was the point when they were no longer willingly sacrificing themselves to help the planet, but rather forcing others to involuntarily sacrifice lives for their own comfort. The world is safe, peaceful and functioning again, and yet that is not enough. It's even going against the wishes of those sacrificed; remember that we heard from those souls in Mare Lamentorum, and they are still completely okay with their own sacrifices. The third sacrifice is for nobody's benefit but the surviving Ancients, as well as the point where the notion they might ever be satisfied is gone.

To a degree, you could say that the moment the third sacrifice was hatched was the point where the Convocation became the Ascians. The point where all reason beyond a selfish desire to want their perfect past back is gone; the point where Emet-Selch's stated view of 'I don't see you as people, so it's not murder' became their accepted view (and yes, I know that after a point he didn't 'really' believe that, but there was undeniably a point where it was true).

Co-signing on this especially. Regardless of what was being sacrificed, the intentions of the third sacrifice were selfish in nature.

[Alleo]

Is it truly demanding a sacrifice from the planet when the life brought forth by Zodiark wasn't even entirely a product of it to begin with? The Ancients sacrificed themselves to create Zodiark and later did it again to restore life to the world, meaning they did not need to utilize the planet's reserves of aether for the act in the first place. Thus, any life brought forth by Zodiark is, in my opinion, already removed from the natural order. Sacrificing this life to bring back the people that died to give Zodiark life just seems reasonable, and it in no way would harm the star. If anything, restoring the Ancient population would have been a great boon given their desire to resume living for the planet as they had.

Isnt that the whole problem that Hermes had with his people? That they would just destroy anything that doesnt fit their view of perfection which includes beings that are able to feel emotions and have a soul? We too had a soul yet we were seen as nothing more than a familiar. Even Emet and Hythlo talk about us as an "it" when they met us. If we did not have Azem souls they probably would not have cared much about us anyway.

We dont know what they intended to sacrifice. But the new races had to come from somehwere and so its not that farfetched that the new lives include these too. Anyway that decision alone brought Elidibus out which shows that it was not so easy between the two factions. Also we do have to remember that these once were people who were fine with dieing. Yet suddenly they could not accept the sacrifices? Could not go on living on the already rebuilt planet? They wanted to return to paradise. If you start with sacrificies beyond the pure survival then who knows how far that would go.

Edit:

Also if they only needed common animals to sacrifice (even without a soul) then why would they need to sacrifice life at all? Just gather up aether over time with everyone giving a bit of their own and exchange that for each soul. They have the time. They would not need to have every soul back right away. Just do it slowly. There aether exchange done without a single death life. Yet that seemingly never was part of the plan or done.

We have to remember that the amount of aether a Ancient had was huuuuge. How much life with a soul on their own would be needed to just get one soul back? And what would that do with Zodiark? We see with Fandaniel that the one in charge is bascially controlling him. Of course that could be because Elidibus was not part of it anymore but at that time were they intended for the third round he was already out of the primal. I doubt Zodiark would have been left in their controll if it was fed with countless of souls that are absolutely angry and hateful at being sacrificied. Just look what one such soul did with the phoenix. Imagine that now in thousand or more souls. With that act they might have already destroyed their planet again because Zodiark would then turn on them.

[KariTheFox]

Isnt that the whole problem that Hermes had with his people? That they would just destroy anything that doesnt fit their view of perfection which includes beings that are able to feel emotions and have a soul? We too had a soul yet we were seen as nothing more than a familiar. Even Emet and Hythlo talk about us as an "it" when they met us. If we did not have Azem souls they probably would not have cared much about us anyway.

Yeah, even if the ancients said that they were sacrificing non-sapient life to Zodiark for the third sacrifice, I don't think I trust Emet-"I don't really view you as people"-Selch and the rest of the ancients to be making that determination objectively. (Whether or not Emet actually believed those words personally is besides the point - he probably doesn't. It is the orthodox position for the ancient society.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

I got it from the themes and motifs of the story being told, and the fact that the ancients created Zodiark the god who demands sacrifice to restore the world. Not Zodiark the aether-conversion engine that needs fuel to operate. l

Don’t we see this exact thing with Hydaelyn though? If i’m not mistaken she functions like any other primal because in Heavensward we have to feed her crystals to talk to her. Why would Zodiark be any different.

[EaraGrace]

I was referring to when they found out about the universe in Elpis. None of the three fell into shock or despair from that.

Two of those there would go on a multi millennia campaign to do what they thought was right for humanity and the third sacrificed themselves to create a god. Hell, all three agreed Venat was right in the end. Maybe they aren’t the best example of what you’re trying to argue.

Clearly Venat thought it was possible given she planned and prepared for that very eventuality. Is there some particular reason she couldn't have simply done that instead of killing everyone else and forcing them to adhere to her ideals?

Of course she thought it possible, my point however is that’s not a solution the way silencing the song of oblivion is and would only lead to the destruction of Etheirys and all life.

Your argument is that all of her summoners had to die to give Hydaelyn a chance despite her specifically being designed with a power that hard-countered Zodiark, but despite being an Ancient concept empowered by their souls she was also conveniently not powerful enough to cause this vague "tug"...

Yes, my argument is she is specifically made to restrain Zodiark and Her powers are limited due to the fact that 2/3 of the world did not sacrifice themselves to power Her. If you can’t recognize there may be effects unique to that case then perhaps this discussion will be fruitless.

99.99999% of modern humanity would also stand absolutely no chance doing that same thing. A bunch of panicky civilians aren't heroes, that's true regardless of the era.

I choose to believe 99% of people wouldn’t sacrifice innocent lives.

Venat knew the solution...

Then don’t take my word for it. Here’s Venat.



It’s clear that a basic understanding of a concept shouldn’t be enough for one to base their hopes on. Venat recognizes the need for Hermes expertise, and recognizes her own limitations. What reason would she have to not fairly judge the situation, if it would only be to her benefit?

Or, as I postulated before, she did and the distrust this bred led them to ignore her.

And then you must concede you have 0 evidence of this.

We all do that on a daily basis. Why, given life, is the Dodo meant to die, helpless in my stir-fry?

I wonder why they didn’t just breed a bunch of chickens and sacrifice them to Zodiark then. I mean it’s not like Emet has shown a willingness to sacrifice innocent sapient life in pursuit of his goals. Right?

[KariTheFox]

Don’t we see this exact thing with Hydaelyn though? If i’m not mistaken she functions like any other primal because in Heavensward we have to feed her crystals to talk to her. Why would Zodiark be any different.

It's been a while, but I don't think so? My recollection is that we traveled to the aetherial sea via the antitower, and then spoke to Minfilia as the Oracle by using the little crystal macguffins we got during ARR. It never seemed like the crystals were an energy source for that - more like a catalyst to make communication possible.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It's been a while, but I don't think so? My recollection is that we traveled to the aetherial sea via the antitower, and then spoke to Minfilia as the Oracle by using the little crystal macguffins we got during ARR. It never seemed like the crystals were an energy source for that - more like a catalyst to make communication possible.

I haven’t seen it in awhile but i thought that was implied to be our first real sign she was a primal. We use the crystals and i think they even just disappear after and she says her energy is waning and we have no more to give her.

[MikkoAkure]

I haven’t seen it in awhile but i thought that was implied to be our first real sign she was a primal. We use the crystals and i think they even just disappear after and she says her energy is waning and we have no more to give her.

We "invoked the power of our crystal" when the Warriors of Darkness brought theirs out, trying to escape, which was all a part of Urianger's plan, somehow. The combination of all the crystals brought us to a meeting with her and after which she sucked the crystals dry for more power. But the power in the crystals was already her own power that she had given to the crystals to begin with. It wasn't the same as other primals, who we see being summoned with stashes of regular, naturally-made crystals.

I don't even know if the writers had planned for Zodiark and Hydaelyn to be primals that early. They said during fan fest once that they didn't do the Warriors of Darkness arc expecting us to go to the First, either. A lot of the game's story feels like they had a vague idea of how it was going to go, and made up how we were going to get there and what happens along the way.