The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

[Crushnight]

Zenos is very popular in Japan as a FFXIV character, not necessarily as a FF character overall.

Source please, anecdotal evidence is not good enough, I provided the most recent data on his popularity in Japan please provide something to counter it besides my friends in JP say he is popular.

And I am sure that after Endwalker, he will become even more popular.

No doubt I said as much in my post that after EW he would be more popular, recency bias is a thing, and Zenos will not be immune to it.

My Japanese friends have already told me that the Japanese players with whom they interact have already shown an increased appreciation/interest for Zenos.

Anecdotal, people you interact with and people they interact with is not indicative of a playerbase at large. Best to wait to see the next popularity poll to happen so we can see how he actually fared in popularity on a more unbias scale.

And Yoshi-P himself loves Zenos as a character.

Noted, but 1 man liking does not mean much, the most this means is the Director/Producer may try to push what they like on a playerbase that they may not want as much and I am suddenly reminded of the Tales of Zesteria and the Rose/Aisha fiasco. Fortunately it is nowhere near as bad as that but Yoshi P is not immune to it, remember Endwalker was delayed because he wasn't happy with some parts of the expansion being up to his standards.

He has the power to do something like that, he is the man who changed Lakshmi from an older looking snake woman to a younger one. He could've done something like remove a walk away option before the final fight.

Interestingly enough, Japanese audiences seem to have a deeper understanding of Zenos than Western audiences who just seem, generally, more impatient, and more willing to gloss over or outright ignore details, clues, and hints, as well as subtlety in general.

This ... is just condescending and outright insulting, I am part of multiple FF not just XIV but FF gacha discords and guess what people have different opinions and I interact with both Western players and Eastern players and on both sides of the world they are split when it comes to Zenos and yet not 1 person ever resorted to insulting the other side for their opinion, but you seem to have just decided that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion on Zenos is deliberately ignorant of his character. People are not, they take in all the information that Zenos has been given and still don't like them.

[nighttimebunny]

Honestly, I don't think Zenos's story is completely done. He may be dead -- not that that stopped him before -- but there are still loose ends. Most notably being his dreams of the Final Days and the identity of his voidsent Avatar, which Yoshi-P hinted was connected to the Warrior of Light.

That's not to say he'll come back to life, but I would be surprised if we don't learn more about him and his soul before everything is said and done. The story of how he came to obtain his Avatar feels like something that could well be handled in a short story, but it's hard for me to imagine that his soul hasn't always been entwined with Azem's in a perpetual, cyclical conflict, and that feels like something we could potentially see play out in the game as we inevitably come to learn the story of Azem.

Totally agree, I do not believe he is dead though, it just seemed very open ended.

[NoblePigeon]

Completely tangential, but:

“I personally found that last shot of Zenos’ body left to rot the edge of the universe unexpectedly cruel, and I had difficulty feeling positively throughout the rest of the game’s ending.“

I did too. But then I realized: Zenos died exactly where he wanted, when he wanted. I imagine he’d want a sick ass impromptu gravestone on the edge of the universe, where no one will ever find his remains because they’re unworthy and painfully trite (to him). He’s as far away from the world he hated as one could possibly get.

Honestly, if we brought his remains back, he’d probably come back from the dead again just to repossess his corpse and leap out of the Ragnarok while it was still in space. And if his Avatar possesses his Corpse? Zenos spooked an Unsundered Ancient out of his stolen body, I imagine this time he’d somehow reduce it to mincemeat without having to body hop again. Just a dynamis wraith formed around the emotion of “LET ME STAY DEAD”.

[Kaliesto]

Last thing I got out of Zenos toward the very end is that he is combat sexual.

Ok jokes aside, I really wonder if that is the end of him because what if his Voidsent takes over his body?

[StriderShinryu]

Noted, but 1 man liking does not mean much, the most this means is the Director/Producer may try to push what they like on a playerbase that they may not want as much and I am suddenly reminded of the Tales of Zesteria and the Rose/Aisha fiasco. Fortunately it is nowhere near as bad as that but Yoshi P is not immune to it, remember Endwalker was delayed because he wasn't happy with some parts of the expansion being up to his standards.

...

This ... is just condescending and outright insulting, I am part of multiple FF not just XIV but FF gacha discords and guess what people have different opinions and I interact with both Western players and Eastern players and on both sides of the world they are split when it comes to Zenos and yet not 1 person ever resorted to insulting the other side for their opinion, but you seem to have just decided that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion on Zenos is deliberately ignorant of his character. People are not, they take in all the information that Zenos has been given and still don't like them.

On the first part, absolutely. Yoshida liking Zenos a lot may actually be the only thing that kept Zenos somewhat relevant. I've said before that Zenos continued existence after he offed himself feels like the writers are basically being forced to keep him around because someone higher up wants him to be there, and YoshiP basically telling them they have to keep him around makes a lot of sense. Not saying Yoshida is his only fan, clearly, but the writers haven't done anything with him for, what, 4 years? It really doesn't seem like the writers choice.

On the second part, also absolutely. I get that Zenos is liked (and even loved) by some. I get that some people do think that he works and do feel that he connects with them. I'm fine with that. I loved Fandaniel and I know that some people absolutely hated him, and not just in the way he was intended to be hated. I'm just sick of being told that I just don't like Zenos because I don't understand him, or because I just don't get how deep he is or how great he is. If he works for you, that's cool. If he clicks with you as the perfect villain or perfect anti-hero or perfect reflection of your particular WoL, that's fine. But there are some people (quite a few people if you ask around) that he doesn't work for and hasn't worked for for years now and, I'm sorry, but it's not because we just "don't get it."

[vormela]

This isn't particularly directed at the above poster because there is always a ton of this...

What does someone not liking a character, whichever one that may be, and being unwilling to even tolerate hearing about them ("just let them die," "they are boring") add to the discussion?

What is pointing out ad nauseam that a character is bad, morally degenerate, or that they only exist for fan service actually contributing?

Maybe it says something about your perception when you are reading a conversation about a character as just someone's attempt to hype them or to try to explain/convince you why the character is good.

Then there's that, too, of course. And I really think the people who do that just love the story as much as I do. At least it is more than "he's boring; let him die."

[Vuro]

This isn't particularly directed at the above poster because there is always a ton of this...

What does someone not liking a character, whichever one that may be, and being unwilling to even tolerate hearing about them ("just let them die," "they are boring") add to the discussion?

What is pointing out ad nauseam that a character is bad, morally degenerate, or that they only exist for fan service actually contributing?

Maybe it says something about your perception when you are reading a conversation about a character as just someone's attempt to hype them or to try to explain/convince you why the character is good.

Then there's that, too, of course. And I really think the people who do that just love the story as much as I do. At least it is more than "he's boring; let him die."

This was what I was most afraid of when I posted this thread and it was disappointing when that happened, but totally unsurprising, lol. At least there's been a liiiittle bit of worthwhile discussion for me to comb through, though!

[KageTokage]

Assuming the story is going to start pushing more into mysteries pertaining to the world itself like the Lifestream, the nature of souls, and the Echo, I feel like we're probably going to end up unraveling what the deal with Zenos was in the process.

I'm leaning towards him being an attempt on Emet's part to create beings that were closer to the Ancients without need of completing the Rejoining either as a contingency plan or simply due to his distaste for man's flawed state of being.

[Erendis]

In PLL Yoshida said that Zenos inherited it from Emet-Selch.

[KageTokage]

In PLL Yoshida said that Zenos inherited it from Emet-Selch.

That feels rather...unsatisfying after Fandaniel suggested there was some deeper reason behind it.

They did however stress that the matter of how Zenos became a reaper and got his avatar is something they can't talk about, so I'm completely expecting at least that avatar of his to become a nuisance in the future because the RPR quests established a precedent for them attempting to use their pact-bearers as puppets as soon as the chance presents itself.

Though they could also be suggesting it was rather the manner in which his avatar was summoned could become a problem, since there's no indication he actually left the capital to do so and the tower is still radiating an unpleasant aura not unlike that of an enshrouded reaper's...