Tank healing is to high

[Atreides]

snip

Reading that makes me asume you play nothing else but dungeons in this game. Because it's not nearly as bad as you describe it in trials and raids.
Sure there has been people that challenge themselves with only tank UCOB for example but I asure you things like these are nothing the average player can even dream to do.

As strong WAR is in Dungeons right now with their selfheals, in raids/trials they can't completely selfsustain themselves for long.

[ssunny2008]

As strong WAR is in Dungeons right now with their selfheals, in raids/trials they can't completely selfsustain themselves for long.

They can. The only bad thing are the overused multi-stack marks. But with a decent cd-management or even LB1 here and there it´s possible and not only on WAR.

I don't see how it's tank's fault that incoming damage as a whole is so low that you can effectively heal an entire encounter with planned oGCDs. That's how it was before this expansion. Making my role less fun because you're not satisfied with yours is the worst way to go about it.

If you want more healing to do then beg the devs to make damage more threatening, don't gimp me because you're frustrated. You don't see me complaining when healers get damage reduction, especially when SGE has % reduction out the wazoo.

Should I be making threads advocating for the removal of all damage reducing effects in the game that aren't on tanks? Bye bye Addle, Feint, Temperance. Damage reduction is a tank's job, not the healer or DPS. :/

Your claim doesn´t make much sense.

It would be the same if the game is getting tuned up to the point where tanks actually need some brain to use, as if the tanks are getting nerfed in their current form. It would be the same... but you´ve less work to adjust some classes instead of redesigning every encounter. On top the game would be like "You need a tank who´s able to make use of ALL his tools, otherwise they group will wipe permanently", if they adjust the encounters only. (I would prefer both combined, but that´s another thing.)

[Praesul]

They can. The only bad thing are the overused multi-stack marks. But with a decent cd-management or even LB1 here and there it´s possible and not only on WAR.



Your claim doesn´t make much sense.

It would be the same if the game is getting tuned up to the point where tanks actually need some brain to use, as if the tanks are getting nerfed in their current form. It would be the same... but you´ve less work to adjust some classes instead of redesigning every encounter. On top the game would be like "You need a tank who´s able to make use of ALL his tools, otherwise they group will wipe permanently", if they adjust the encounters only. (I would prefer both combined, but that´s another thing.)

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

Again, incoming damage should go up rather than things being taken away from other roles. It doesn't have to be drastic enough that casual players can't complete things, but enough to apparently force GCD heals out of players since that's seemingly what people want. Let's ignore the fact that tanks can't raise, don't have an rDPS increase, and don't have consistently available aoe healing.

You don't see me complaining when I get a normal mode encounter that has two tanks but no actual mechanics for the 2nd tank. I'm just there as a gimp DPS and that's fine, you're there for safety. In the same way that fates are so easy oftentimes you can do them without a tank or a healer. Game's not balanced around fates, and the flexibility of not need specific roles is a good thing actually. If you're a tank or a healer in a fate party you add way more safety though, and there's still value in having you around even if you're not "required".

[Risvertasashi]

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

That doesn't mean we should make it worse. Lowering healing requirements even more (which this expansion did via massive tank healing buffs) is a step in the wrong direction, not the right one.

[Praesul]

That doesn't mean we should make it worse. Lowering healing requirements even more (which this expansion did via massive tank healing buffs) is a step in the wrong direction, not the right one.

You will still be a safety net in the vast majority of content even if they removed all the self-healing from tanks completely. Again, healing has rarely been so intense that you absolutely 100% need two healers to accomplish your task. It's true for dungeons, for fates, for eureka, bozja, pvp.

You will still be planning out your oGCD heals and doing the bare minimum you need to keep everyone alive, if that.


If you want to spam heals 24/7 then the game needs to change, nerfing tanks won't accomplish anything. Aoe damage should be more frequent, boss autos should either hit harder or occur more frequently, otherwise things will always be the way they've always been.

Healers still have a niche in that they're still the role with the most agency when things go badly. They have the best tools to save other players, make up for people messing up mechanics, etc etc. And that's why people will always WANT to have them even if they don't "NEED" them.

[Risvertasashi]

You will still be a safety net in the vast majority of content even if they removed all the self-healing from tanks completely. Again, healing has rarely been so intense that you absolutely 100% need two healers to accomplish your task. It's true for dungeons, for fates, for eureka, bozja, pvp.

You will still be planning out your oGCD heals and doing the bare minimum you need to keep everyone alive, if that.


If you want to spam heals 24/7 then the game needs to change, nerfing tanks won't accomplish anything. Aoe damage should be more frequent, boss autos should either hit harder or occur more frequently, otherwise things will always be the way they've always been.

Healers still have a niche in that they're still the role with the most agency when things go badly. They have the best tools to save other players, make up for people messing up mechanics, etc etc. And that's why people will always WANT to have them even if they don't "NEED" them.

I don't think so. There's been times in the game's past when solo healing (and solo tanking, yes) were pretty common. Being able to take 5 or 6 DPS has massive benefits as well - faster kills, less mechanics seen, more reliability. And you'll fill your PF faster.

It's possible SE will continually include mechanics that force 2 tanks and/or healers - they seem fond of shared tankbusters so far in EW, for example - but outside of that, there's no shortage of people all too happy to dump tanks and healers when they can.

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Now to address the wider issue, because people say similar things on the healer forums: Yes, if you want more healing, there needs to be different and probably more fundamental changes as well. Yes, the low healing requirements have been a "problem" if seen as such for a while.

But more than one problem can exist at a time. Endwalker introduced a new one. Just because this problem exists, doesn't negate the old problems. And just because the old problems exist, doesn't negate the tank healing problem.

[ssunny2008]

If the game is already easy (and believe me, it is 90% of the time) enough to not "require" healers then what difference does it make right now? People were already doing cheesy no healer runs last expansion, and the expansion before. It's not new.

Again, incoming damage should go up rather than things being taken away from other roles. It doesn't have to be drastic enough that casual players can't complete things, but enough to apparently force GCD heals out of players since that's seemingly what people want. Let's ignore the fact that tanks can't raise, don't have an rDPS increase, and don't have consistently available aoe healing.

You don't see me complaining when I get a normal mode encounter that has two tanks but no actual mechanics for the 2nd tank. I'm just there as a gimp DPS and that's fine, you're there for safety. In the same way that fates are so easy oftentimes you can do them without a tank or a healer. Game's not balanced around fates, and the flexibility of not need specific roles is a good thing actually. If you're a tank or a healer in a fate party you add way more safety though, and there's still value in having you around even if you're not "required".

I know that´s the most content is trash anyway, but just scaling around with the content or coming with more instadeath-mechanics wouldn´t change anything but cause frustration to the most players. And no, it´s not a new thing. Tanks are broken for a long time now, EW just made it a step worse once again. Only 1 fight in Shb has forced the tanks to melt their defs into tankbuster, E12s and that was it.

So now... what might happen when you just flat scale the damage up from bosses? Tanks get more damage with autohits and through tankbusters. So you´ve to use all your cd´s. But is it good gameplay? And what if you miss 1 def? And what´s with the whole group once you fckd up? Just another insta-wipe because i played failed to press a button? It´s a bad design so far.

Every class should be able to have some self-sustain, some surviveability. But it shouldn´t be usable every 30s, shouldn´t outclass healer and it shouldn´t make a one-man-army out of it.
For example... stuff like the GNB invul would be perfect on a DPS-melee. Why? As emergency button when things go nuts, when the tank died and you might get slapped out of your shoes. But no, tanks which are already strong af, sitting on invul to play around swap-mechanics. Standard mechanics tanks should get used too, but rarely do, thx to invul.

Another one are all those new multitools. Why does such strong skills without any con even exist? What´s the purpose of them? Tanks are able to survive everything even with 5 vuln stacks, but they get such defs on top of it? Meanwhile healer and DPS classes die poorly to the next raidwide with 1 stack? How would it look like with more damage-incomes? That you need a Scholar and all his barriers at any aoe?

I´m really up for any new challenge since i could write novels about "what´s wrong with the games difficulty, balancing and learning curve", but i could also write novels "what´s wrong with tanks". We need more hardhitting content to force more out of tanks yes, but tanks also shouldn´t have more defs than their 123 rotation. Defs should be implemented in a more difficult rotation or locked behind ressources instead of just cooldowns. TBN is a great example for a great def, which is strong when it´s correct used, but will cost you everything if you fck it up. And ofcourse there shouldn´t be major defs to solo everything.
On top nearly every class should get some form of emergency skills and DPS should get more to do than being there to drift around with their rotation while relying on the healers at any raidwide. (And no, Chakra and Bloodbath are a joke. Roleskills overall are.)

If we´ve reached a state where tanks aren´t superior in everything, DPS can eat more than 1 autohit and healers actually use GDC heals, combined with some depth in mechanics, then everything would be great. But it´s not possible to adjust the content in such a direction, when tanks sit on superior tools and only instadeath mechanics are able to kill them.

[Kalaam]

Invuln' are kind of "get out of jail free" card for some mechanics. Now, if the fight is build with it in mind I guess it is fine, but on the other hand it just uses it to remove it from your options so you do not cheese other mechanics with it.

[Shurrikhan]

Invuln' are kind of "get out of jail free" card for some mechanics. Now, if the fight is build with it in mind I guess it is fine, but on the other hand it just uses it to remove it from your options so you do not cheese other mechanics with it.

Every sufficient (set of) defensive(s) is likewise a "get out of jail free" card, though, so long as it and the mechanics around it could otherwise have been survived without it.

I don't see why that would make invulns inherently bad, unless we'd also go so far as to say that Surecast, Swiftcast, Rescue, and the like are similarly "cheese" that must be curtailed or removed. (Don't need to preposition for or wait until after the DDR mechanics nor sacrifice more than a GCD's uptime to rez; just Swiftcast, up to once per minute. Don't need to do the movement mechanic to prevent death by knockback; just Surecast, up to once per two minutes.)

If they seem overly impactful at present, it's likely because they're not accounted for to the extent they should be. We have stackable healer external mitigation up to our ears; there's no reason to assume we should be able to spare a single tank CD, let alone at least one healer's barrier or percentile mitigation suite, to keep a pair of tanks alive without an invuln. Increase the frequency and power of moderate tankbusters (the kind that need mitigation and a top-off, but won't kill over a +/- 5% or missing food) and once invulns are no longer a way to simply leave other cooldowns on reserve out of sheer ease or additional healer offensive GCDs, voila, they'd no longer feel like "cheese" so much as a powerful emergency button by which to resurface for air or recover a single overexpenditure.