Our Azem - A secret plan? (Slight EW Spoilers)

[Jojoya]

EW leaned real heavy into Venat’s decision to sunder the star - but we know from past lore that (our) Azem wasn’t keen on either Hydaelyn or Zodiark.

We actually don't know that. All we know is that Azem left the Convocation prior to Zodiark's summoning and did not respond to overtures from Venat's followers. Azem's actual thoughts and feelings about either were not shared with us. We've been assuming they didn't approve based on what we were told in Shadowbringers.

"Secret" long term plans did not seem to be part of Azem's character from the things we've been told. Impulsive responses, with a mischievous flair, were.

I suspect Venat approached Azem privately and spilled the beans about our visit. Azem may have decided to play a waiting game to see if what we had told her came to pass. When it did, Azem may have chosen to step aside and trust in the future self to handle things at the right time.

As for our WoL becoming Azem of the past, not going to happen. Our soul isn't dense enough, nor do we share all of the talents that Azem had.

[Shookbeast]

We actually don't know that. All we know is that Azem left the Convocation prior to Zodiark's summoning and did not respond to overtures from Venat's followers. Azem's actual thoughts and feelings about either were not shared with us. We've been assuming they didn't approve based on what we were told in Shadowbringers.

"Secret" long term plans did not seem to be part of Azem's character from the things we've been told. Impulsive responses, with a mischievous flair, were.

I suspect Venat approached Azem privately and spilled the beans about our visit. Azem may have decided to play a waiting game to see if what we had told her came to pass. When it did, Azem may have chosen to step aside and trust in the future self to handle things at the right time.

As for our WoL becoming Azem of the past, not going to happen. Our soul isn't dense enough, nor do we share all of the talents that Azem had.

I suppose it’s true that we don’t know their specific feelings - but we do know they didn’t go along with either plan. I’d put forward that Azem’s situation was one similar to the one our character finds themself in at the Forum. We/Azem probably would prefer the planet and the people on it to be saved - rather than be sacrificed for a greater good.

Azem, I agree, might not make secret plans - (although you’re assuming they do and made exactly that with Venat) - but if Azem had Scion-parallel friends, I bet they had plans, and that those plans involved Azem.

As far Azem being our WOL through some kind of time loop - I think it’s entirely possible. We may even need to merge with our few remaining sundered selves in order to travel back in time again. Something, something about being soul-dense enough to evade dynamis currents handwave handwave handwave (with a chance to visit a few other shards).

[Shookbeast]

Thinking on this a little more. Maybe when/if we meet or learn more about our Azem - it will be used as a point of contrast. EW put so much emphasis on saving our friends and keeping hope alive - and surely if we’re so much like Azem, than Azem had their own band of Scions/Friends that they wanted to see stay alive.

Maybe we find out that Azem went off to fight something, because that’s how they solved everything - and by fighting they lost both their life, and the life of their friends when Venat sundered the star…

We’re supposed to learn, perhaps, from Azem’s choices, that going off to fight everything doesn’t always solve the problem.

I also wonder if perhaps Azem is responsible for our trio of Unsundered surviving. Perhaps in a similar fashion to how our character is always saving their friends by putting themselves in danger? Imagine if our character realized everyone they knew (including the twins) were about to be split into 14 new lives with no memory of what came before. Wouldn’t we try to save them - so they could keep the fight going?

And maybe, ultimately, the struggle to “keep the fight going” is what lead to the downfall of our Undsundered trio, both morally and mentally.

[Kesey]

So I believe the reason Azem is missing from the majority of events happens for two reasons.

First, it's so the player has agency this expansion in the struggles of the past and witnesses them first hand.

Secondly, it leaves a plot point open for Azem to be attempting to fix another problem while summoning and sundering was played out. Since we know we are heading into a season 2 of the story so to speak, we now have a way to make the new plot ancient in origin and personally tied up with our player character again.

[Alleo]

But wasn’t Azem sundered by Venat, and thus no longer that Azem? That’s how our characters exist, and they have no memory of their life as Azem.

We do not know if sundering takes away memories. After all the only one that showed us something about that was Emet who simply made a copy of Ryne.

Our WoL basically does not remember their time as Azem because they are the (input unknown number) reincarnation of them. And with each death your soul normally gets cleaned up which is why we dont remember. Azem would have not died (there is imo nothing ingame that says that sundering kills you) and may have kept all the memories intact.

As far Azem being our WOL through some kind of time loop - I think it’s entirely possible. We may even need to merge with our few remaining sundered selves in order to travel back in time again. Something, something about being soul-dense enough to evade dynamis currents handwave handwave handwave (with a chance to visit a few other shards).

I mean according to Venat nothing is impossible but I find the notion that we somehow gain all our our shards back and that we are THE Azem to be impossible for this kind of story. I doubt that the devs would create a story where the sundered souls would win because they were sundered and then turn around and make us whole. Not only would that mean that somehow the other shards of our souls get over to the source and then die or that the rejoinings are happening anyway.

And then we have to remember that Ancients get very old. Who knows how old Azem was when the final days happened. How would we be able to live through all of it? Would nobody ever question that we basically have no family because we would already be adults? And then how would that fit with the sundering and everything after that?

I think Time Traveling can already open way too many plot holes if its done wrong. Such an undertaking with Azem being really us would just be too much (imo).

[Iscah]

I feel like it's not worth trying to make sense of Azem's strange omniscience at this point. Too many variables.

I will look forward to getting more pieces of the puzzle in the following raids.

[Shookbeast]

We do not know if sundering takes away memories. After all the only one that showed us something about that was Emet who simply made a copy of Ryne.

Our WoL basically does not remember their time as Azem because they are the (input unknown number) reincarnation of them. And with each death your soul normally gets cleaned up which is why we dont remember. Azem would have not died (there is imo nothing ingame that says that sundering kills you) and may have kept all the memories intact.



I mean according to Venat nothing is impossible but I find the notion that we somehow gain all our our shards back and that we are THE Azem to be impossible for this kind of story. I doubt that the devs would create a story where the sundered souls would win because they were sundered and then turn around and make us whole. Not only would that mean that somehow the other shards of our souls get over to the source and then die or that the rejoinings are happening anyway.

And then we have to remember that Ancients get very old. Who knows how old Azem was when the final days happened. How would we be able to live through all of it? Would nobody ever question that we basically have no family because we would already be adults? And then how would that fit with the sundering and everything after that?

I think Time Traveling can already open way too many plot holes if its done wrong. Such an undertaking with Azem being really us would just be too much (imo).

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

I was under the impression that when Venat sundered her planet - she started 14 new planets from scratch - with entirely new life on each one. No copies of any person she knew or lived alongside with. No 14 Azem clones each existing on a same but diminished planet.

Is this actual lore? Or just a theory being repeated?

This is important baseline stuff for me. The idea of 14 Azems running around with clones of their friends - each starting what amounts to their own timeline on each cloned planet is a cool idea - but I don’t remember anything like that being mentioned.

Isn’t each shard its own thing, that developed in parallel to the source post-sundering?

[Layte_Aeon]

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

I was under the impression that when Venat sundered her planet - she started 14 new planets from scratch - with entirely new life on each one. No copies of any person she knew or lived alongside with. No 14 Azem clones each existing on a same but diminished planet.

Is this actual lore? Or just a theory being repeated?

This is important baseline stuff for me. The idea of 14 Azems running around with clones of their friends - each starting what amounts to their own timeline on each cloned planet is a cool idea - but I don’t remember anything like that being mentioned.

Isn’t each shard its own thing, that developed in parallel to the source post-sundering?

The shards are seperate, but still connected, the rejoinings couldn't happen otherwise. Hydaelyn's sundering is described as dividing anything, 1 person becomes 2 identical in all respects but notably both are reduced in all respects. And while they start from the same point, they are now different beings, who will experience the world differently and become different people as a result.

The shards all started seemingly identical in appearence to the source, but 12,000 ish years is enough to cause great differences and changes in all of them.

[Rannie]

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

I was under the impression that when Venat sundered her planet - she started 14 new planets from scratch - with entirely new life on each one. No copies of any person she knew or lived alongside with. No 14 Azem clones each existing on a same but diminished planet.

Is this actual lore? Or just a theory being repeated?

This is important baseline stuff for me. The idea of 14 Azems running around with clones of their friends - each starting what amounts to their own timeline on each cloned planet is a cool idea - but I don’t remember anything like that being mentioned.

Isn’t each shard its own thing, that developed in parallel to the source post-sundering?

I can't remember the name of the quest but the scene is rewatchable in the Inn, Emet-Selch himself describes what exactly happened when the sundering took place. When I get home I'll give you the name of the quest and which number in the journal it is.

[Iscah]

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

Emet demonstrates the concept of sundering by creating the illusion of an exact copy of Ryne, saying that all aspects of a person would be split between the copies.

And for the worlds themselves, you can see that the basic geography of Eorzea and Norvrandt lines up.

Additionally you mostly find the same creatures on each shard.