On Venat's Role in the Story

[HappyHubris]

EDIT: I will admit, at times it was laid on a tad thick that she had altruistic reasons for what she did. But I don't think that's a mistake so much as an unfortunate requirement of where the story was. It's real damn hard to give a good reason for 'I smashed the planet and took the powers of godhood from man', and yet that's the challenge they took up. That means making your argument as loudly and clearly as possible, and knowing that anything less will cause it to falter.

This is due to the mistakes of giving Venat knowledge about and agency regarding the end days. The writers inexplicably decided to make the entire plot part of her benevolent master plan instead of allowing her to stumble and react to events. This means that the character must be incredibly evil.

Time travel is a dangerous narrative tool.

[Theozilla]

On a slightly related/different subject, did Hydaelyn's power of "mastery over matter, to give form to the formless" that the WoL's Azem crystal was temporarily imbued with, was that used just to recreate/revive the Scions in Ultima Thule, or was it also utilized in summoning of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus as well? Like if the Azem crystal hadn't been imbued with Hydaelyn's power then, would Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus not have been summoned with their ability to use Creation Magicks and/or would have looked like the how Emet-Selch looked during the Seat of Sacrifice trial against Elidibus?

[pinkbubblegum]

On a slightly related/different subject, did Hydaelyn's power of "mastery over matter, to give form to the formless" that the WoL's Azem crystal was temporarily imbued with, was that used just to recreate/revive the Scions in Ultima Thule, or was it also utilized in summoning of Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus as well? Like if the Azem crystal hadn't been imbued with Hydaelyn's power then, would Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus not have been summoned with their ability to use Creation Magicks and/or would have looked like the how Emet-Selch looked during the Seat of Sacrifice trial against Elidibus?

Only the first, from my understanding (Scions-related only) since Hades specifically says a line to the effect of "In case it isn't clear, that means you're (free to use the crystal to bring back your friends because its power was not expended in summoning the two of us)" during that part then he makes a big show saying he didn't want to remain there thanks to Hydaelyn's magic only. So I understood it as the two of them being there was more of a bonus gift Hydaelyn tossed in with the crystal. Narrative-wise though, it's a point meant to give the player with a sense of hopelessness and sadness that they're forced to choose between the Scions and the rest of the universe, but like someone brought up in the thread, the Scions are quite plot-armory at this point haha, since it's hard to do damage to any of them without facing a possibly huge backlash.

[Theozilla]

Only the first, from my understanding (Scions-related only) since Hades specifically says a line to the effect of "In case it isn't clear, that means you're (free to use the crystal to bring back your friends because its power was not expended in summoning the two of us)" during that part then he makes a big show saying he didn't want to remain there thanks to Hydaelyn's magic only. So I understood it as the two of them being there was more of a bonus gift Hydaelyn tossed in with the crystal. Narrative-wise though, it's a point meant to give the player with a sense of hopelessness and sadness that they're forced to choose between the Scions and the rest of the universe, but like someone brought up in the thread, the Scions are quite plot-armory at this point haha, since it's hard to do damage to any of them without facing a possibly huge backlash.

See though, since Emet-Selch said he wouldn't suffer himself "to live again by Hydaelyn's magick", doesn't that imply that he and Hythlodaeus are effectively alive again at that point? Like they didn't start fading back into the Aetherial Sea/Lifestream because of a time-limit, they only began to return after Emet-Selch snapped his fingers a second time (guessing that dispelled Hydaelyn's Magick). And when Emet-Selch had said that specific line of dialogue, Hydaelyn's magick had already faded from Azem's crystal (as visually indicated by the sparkles drifting away from it), so if Emet-Selch was not effectively alive at that point, with the magick gone at that point there wasn't any ways to make him "suffer to live again", so doesn't that imply he already had been made alive again but was choosing to leave? (hence Alisaie's "You're leaving?" exclamation)
I feel like that's evidence towards Hydaelyn's mastery over matter magick having been used for the Scions and Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus.

Also Emet-Selch saying the WoL was free to revive the Scions came right after he said their souls were no longer needed to make Ultima Thule survivable (not a terminus any longer), I think it was more referring to it being safe to call them back, not that the Hydaelyn magick could only be used a single time/instance.

[pinkbubblegum]

so doesn't that imply he already had been made alive again but was choosing to leave? (hence Alisaie's "You're leaving?" exclamation)

That's exactly how I understood it too haha. He was alive at that point, brought back similarly to how the Scions were, but chose to leave and be reborn xD
But how I understood it was WoL was willing to give up the Scions in order to give Metieon an answer for the last blockade, through the use of Azem's crystal, but because Hydaelyn is benevolent (and foresaw??? knew what was gonna happen??? idk man...) she left a bonus gift of Hades and Hythlodaeus being able to manifest, on top of the crystal's charge to return the Scions so such a sacrifice of the Scions for the rest of the Universe to live was no longer necessary.

[Cleretic]

This is due to the mistakes of giving Venat knowledge about and agency regarding the end days. The writers inexplicably decided to make the entire plot part of her benevolent master plan instead of allowing her to stumble and react to events. This means that the character must be incredibly evil.

Time travel is a dangerous narrative tool.

Yeah, because once you include time travel, a lot of people decide that the time travel must be an essential part of everything that happens even when it's clearly not. Nothing Venat goes on to do would be reliant on that foreknowledge, because the moment she receives it, her personal challenge is an ethical one; she has no question that she'd do that if things came to it, she just struggles with the fact she'd have to. If she wasn't told, she'd still do all of the things she did.

In fact, it's actually impossible to completely rob Venat of agency through claiming 'predestination paradox, she was told what she'd have to do'. Remember that some of the most integral parts of her overall plan are the things she does herself, that we couldn't possibly have told her: tagging Meteion, creating the Mothercrystal, empowering the Azem crystal. Even in a reading that claims she was doing nothing but following the script, the script still ends in failure without her independence.

That's exactly how I understood it too haha. He was alive at that point, brought back similarly to how the Scions were, but chose to leave and be reborn xD
But how I understood it was WoL was willing to give up the Scions in order to give Metieon an answer for the last blockade, through the use of Azem's crystal, but because Hydaelyn is benevolent (and foresaw??? knew what was gonna happen??? idk man...) she left a bonus gift of Hades and Hythlodaeus being able to manifest, on top of the crystal's charge to return the Scions.

Again, Hydaelyn couldn't have possibly known that part through any kind of foreknowledge; she was just smart enough to realize that such a gift might be essential. I don't think she actually foresaw that reviving the Drama Club Boys would be a key element, she just trusted that, if given all the tools we could reach, we'd find our way. ...because frankly if we didn't, everyone was screwed, so let's hope this one basket we're putting all our eggs in pays off.

[Theozilla]

That's exactly how I understood it too haha. He was alive at that point, brought back similarly to how the Scions were, but chose to leave and be reborn xD
But how I understood it was WoL was willing to give up the Scions in order to give Metieon an answer for the last blockade, through the use of Azem's crystal, but because Hydaelyn is benevolent (and foresaw??? knew what was gonna happen??? idk man...) she left a bonus gift of Hades and Hythlodaeus being able to manifest, on top of the crystal's charge to return the Scions.

The ability to make Hades and Hythlodaeus alive again/manifest is literally describing Hydaelyn's power to "to give form to the formless" which is the gift Hydaelyn said she was giving the Azem crystal the ability to use for a short time, there's no need to come up with a new unknown bonus gift, Azem's standard regular invocation is the ability to summon souls to their aide (like how we did with Emet-Selch in 5.3), but it's is Hydaelyn's power to give them matter and form.

And the WoL knew they couldn't revive the Scions until they figured out a way for Ultima Thule's existence to longer require the Scions souls keeping it survivable/no long in a state of Terminus, so they summoned/revived Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus first because the WoL realized their creation magicks would be able to accomplish that and thus make the Scions souls no longer necessary to survive/forge ahead.

[pinkbubblegum]

Again, Hydaelyn couldn't have possibly known that part through any kind of foreknowledge; she was just smart enough to realize that such a gift might be essential. I don't think she actually foresaw that reviving the Drama Club Boys would be a key element, she just trusted that, if given all the tools we could reach, we'd find our way. ...because frankly if we didn't, everyone was screwed, so let's hope this one basket we're putting all our eggs in pays off.

I mean, I agree with you haha. She shouldn't have known yet Hades' line implies she had definitely considered the scenario xD
Hydaelyn truly knows and conceives of all www

The ability to make Hades and Hythlodaeus alive again/manifest is literally describing Hydaelyn's power to "to give form to the formless" which is the gift Hydaelyn said she was giving the Azem crystal the ability to use for a short time, there's no need to come up with a new unknown bonus gift, Azem's standard regular invocation is the ability to summon souls to their aide (like how we did with Emet-Selch in 5.3), but it's is Hydaelyn's power to give them matter and form.

And the WoL knew they couldn't revive the Scions until they figured out a way for Ultima Thule's existence to longer require the Scions souls keeping it survivable/no long in a state of Terminus, so they summoned/revived Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus first because the WoL realized their creation magicks would be able to accomplish that and thus make the Scions souls no longer necessary to survive/forge ahead.

I just rewatched the CS and you're right. Hythlodaeus even says it was WoL that called the two of them, so it was definitely the crystal having enough power for both of these acts.

[Cleretic]

I mean, I agree with you haha. She shouldn't have known yet Hades' line implies she had definitely considered the scenario xD
Hydaelyn truly knows and conceives of all www

That line I think is more speaking to the fact Emet-Selch was left unsundered, and he suspects that to have been part of her whole plan.

[Rannie]

It wasn't just Emets line, but it could been seen that Hydaelyn herself had the idea as well that Emet could help. She makes a point to state, while speaking through Krile, during the scene where she gives us the Elpis Flower, that besides Minfillia, she brought another soul to lay in the Aetherial Sea and that they may still have a part to play. This was also before Hytholodeaus was freed from Zodiark.