Our Azem - A secret plan? (Slight EW Spoilers)

[Anvaire]

No no, they're right, a lot of your posts feel like you trying to make Venat into a villain when it has been shown she is anything but.


Considering the abridged sequence after Elpis showing what she did, our time with her on Elpis, how she set things up so mortals would have a choice on life, something the Ancients never gave familiars (which they saw the WoL as), how she tried to save the First through Minfilia, us from Ultima back in ARR, and has not treated us or anybody else with any kind of hostility, I cannot see how anybody cannot see her as a good person.


You are correct...if done in good faith and not contradicting evidence or canon the game itself has given.

I personally think she is morally grey. I don't see anything in the game as set in stone one way or another. But rather open to interpretation. Yes she did save us from Ultima. But the situation around minfilia even now doesnt sit right. That said, the difficulty with XIV is that it sometimes changes direction and retcons things/ re-positions things which change how they can be viewed and interpreted. Arr is a case and point for this as a lot of the "truths" there are seen now through a completely different lens.

With the ancients, there really isnt enough to say that the ancients didnt give "familiars" the choice of life. They seemed to test them to make sure the addition wouldnt have adverse effects on the star. Something incidently most countries do with non native animal introductions. At no point during Elpis was the WOL treated as an inanimate object. Most assumed we were there to learn, and treated us respectfully. Which is why i kind of think that saying the ancients wouldnt give us as choice on life is eroneous at best simply because the limited base of information we have doesnt give enough credence to this. Hermes, Emet and Hytho went out of thier way to try to assist the sky snake creation that had regressed. If im being honest, i think the ancients approach was flawed, but ultimatly had the right intentions. They forbade inbuing souls onto the creations because it would cause suffering to said soul if that creation had to be destroyed. Their missive being to test if its of benefit to the star makes sense, as why would you release something that would just go and kill for no reason (as the wolf beast did that was then destroyed) The moral quantdry of whether they should have been creating the monsters in the first place is one that does interest me, but even venar did this so its not as though she was opposed to the whole notion. Setting out the timescales from elpis to the sundering would give ground to say, actually this can be viewed as different because she took x actions or they had x chances. Ultimatley though, i think the ancients were all dealing with an existential crisis they were wholly unprepared for. So its not about looking at venar and saying I really dislike this character and im going to bend canon to prove shes nefarious. Its more looking at her actions and the context and the situation and saying, I can see what motivated to do what she did, but im not 100% convinced that she made the right choice.

After all, most great antagonists in literature are those that are trying to do something they believe they either have no choice to or that is the right thing to do, but their methods are wrong. Ilberd and Raubarn ar are prime example. Both wanted to free Ala Mhigo from oppression. But their methods were completely different. Raubarn was playing a long game of trying to get Ul'dah to support. Ilberd in his desperation chose to sacrifice those he was ment to liberate to a primal thinking it would be the solution to starting the liberation. He wasnt wrong of course, it did do what he wanted, but the cost was heinous.
I do not think what Venat did was the best option given reasons stated above, and i do think Elpis frames the narritive in a way that makes her actions seem just. But i honestly think she was just as desperate those who summoned Zodiark. Neither side was right and neither was wholly wrong i think that is the point of the story.

[Jandor]

I was just wrapping up side quests in Elpis. While most of the Ancients are polite enough, there are a few who are outright rude, and there is a definite undercurrent of you being considered a far lesser lifeform running through most of the quests.

[sidurgu-12]

I'm going to bet this doesn't happen, and that by the end all the Ancients involved chuck their memories of the events in to that crystal and lob it into the lifestream.

a literal fling a light into the future

[Enkidoh]

I was just wrapping up side quests in Elpis. While most of the Ancients are polite enough, there are a few who are outright rude, and there is a definite undercurrent of you being considered a far lesser lifeform running through most of the quests.

They definetely do all think you're just Azem's familiar and not even a 'real' lifeform (most are rather genial towards you in a caring if slightly condescending way - even Hythlodaeus and Emet had this view of you until Venat realized the truth).

This even goes as far in a few instances that you're considered actually little more than a semi-intelligent object that a couple of the researchers there even muse the possibility of asking Azem if they can 'borrow' you for an undisclosed amount of time to study you, underlining the massive racial superiority complex the Ancients had, which is really what caused the whole mess with the Final Days in the first place when you think about it.

[redheadturk]

I personally think she is morally grey. I don't see anything in the game as set in stone one way or another. But rather open to interpretation. Yes she did save us from Ultima. But the situation around minfilia even now doesnt sit right. That said, the difficulty with XIV is that it sometimes changes direction and retcons things/ re-positions things which change how they can be viewed and interpreted. Arr is a case and point for this as a lot of the "truths" there are seen now through a completely different lens.

With the ancients, there really isnt enough to say that the ancients didnt give "familiars" the choice of life. They seemed to test them to make sure the addition wouldnt have adverse effects on the star. Something incidently most countries do with non native animal introductions. At no point during Elpis was the WOL treated as an inanimate object. Most assumed we were there to learn, and treated us respectfully. Which is why i kind of think that saying the ancients wouldnt give us as choice on life is eroneous at best simply because the limited base of information we have doesnt give enough credence to this. Hermes, Emet and Hytho went out of thier way to try to assist the sky snake creation that had regressed. If im being honest, i think the ancients approach was flawed, but ultimatly had the right intentions. They forbade inbuing souls onto the creations because it would cause suffering to said soul if that creation had to be destroyed. Their missive being to test if its of benefit to the star makes sense, as why would you release something that would just go and kill for no reason (as the wolf beast did that was then destroyed) The moral quantdry of whether they should have been creating the monsters in the first place is one that does interest me, but even venar did this so its not as though she was opposed to the whole notion. Setting out the timescales from elpis to the sundering would give ground to say, actually this can be viewed as different because she took x actions or they had x chances. Ultimatley though, i think the ancients were all dealing with an existential crisis they were wholly unprepared for. So its not about looking at venar and saying I really dislike this character and im going to bend canon to prove shes nefarious. Its more looking at her actions and the context and the situation and saying, I can see what motivated to do what she did, but im not 100% convinced that she made the right choice.

This, tbh. The people were grieving, much like someone who had just lost their home would after a hurricane. If someone's god who had been proven to have the power to do so had one of their priests offer to restore the person's home, how many of us would say no to that? Though on a much larger scale, it is the same principle.

[Shookbeast]

I actually start to believe that we are Azem, not a part of him but the actual one, we play with time shenanigans after all. Azem is reportedly never in one place and always on the move, trying to solve issues and help people in need. I think at some point we become Azem, I can see us meeting Azem and that he looks exactly like our character but he won't reveal the truth and it will be brief. (Don't think we'll get something voiced here because it would require male and female voice actors for one character.)

With the raid that is set up now, we might also create a whole new timeline where we safe the ancients now with the Pandemonium story going on... but it's too early to tell since we're only in the first tier of it and alot of questions are yet unanswered. It does hint that whatever is in there might have worked in conjunction with the song of oblivion which caused the Final days tho.

I like where you’re going with this. It’s elegant, and entirely doable in game. Good work (:

As far as this silly debate about whether Venat was bad, we can put that to bed as well. She outright states what she did was terrible - and the game again and again states that ends do not justify the means. She’s a good person in a bad situation. Not a villain - but she still did a bad thing in committing planet-wide genocide - killing all life - including (possibly) our Azem.

If you compare Venat’s predicament to the one facing the Forum, and then compare our character’s actions in trying to sway the Forum (or ultimately find a different solution), then you also see where the morality of the game rests.

I’d imagine our Azem was not cool with planet-wide genocide, and was/is working for a solution where all life can survive.

[Rannie]

*raises hand* since when is sundering a planet wide genocide? If it were an actual genocide then there would be no one left alive period. The Ancients were still alive just split. If someone sundered you would you consider yourself dead?

gen·o·cide

/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

"a campaign of genocide"

[sidurgu-12]

*raises hand* since when is sundering a planet wide genocide? If it were an actual genocide then there would be no one left alive period. The Ancients were still alive just split. If someone sundered you would you consider yourself dead?

gen·o·cide

/ˈjenəˌsīd/

noun

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group

"a campaign of genocide"

i dont understand either but maybe its because their lifespan was shortened and soul divided? i mean nothing else changed since the sundering doesn't kill anything.

[Shookbeast]

i dont understand either but maybe its because their lifespan was shortened and soul divided? i mean nothing else changed since the sundering doesn't kill anything.

It’s genocide because they’re all dead? Everything. We’re not the same person as our Azem. That person is dead because Cenat ended their life. She killed them. She also killed all the animals, plants, critters, and whatever else got split apart. Venat killed them all.

All the new life are new people/plants/animals imbued with life from the shards of the people she killed. Their lives are all over. We’re the new life.

That’s why Venat states what she did was terrible. She killed everyone to try and save the future. Heavy stuff.

[sidurgu-12]

It’s genocide because they’re all dead? Everything. We’re not the same person as our Azem. That person is dead because Cenat ended their life. She killed them. She also killed all the animals, plants, critters, and whatever else got split apart. Venat killed them all.

All the new life are new people/plants/animals imbued with life from the shards of the people she killed. Their lives are all over. We’re the new life.

That’s why Venat states what she did was terrible. She killed everyone to try and save the future. Heavy stuff.

thats not how sundering works. emet selch himself explained that hydaelyns sundering split your being but thats it and since she sundered the planet every single shard was the same. minus aether density.