Endwalker was a great mess(SPOILERS)

[KizuyaKatogami]

?? When did I say that? I mostly enjoyed the story minus a few things. Looks like someones trying to put words in other people's mouths.

She does that a lot unfortunately. Sorry you had to deal with that. :c

[kpxmanifesto]

I mean that isn't even the only reason in the quote that makes it obvious the shouldn't be taken seriously. Generalizing those horrible "millenials" saying they don't read books or as an entire generation only like manga and marvel comics, don't know what movies are and then referencing squid game for the sole reason it's trending on Netflix was enough to dismiss the post as entirely ridiculous.

I think the user you're starting a fight with responded to the whole "copium" thing because the of hypocrisy of literally parroting a current memeword while acting like current trends in story telling are beneath them. But then it could just be because it's a ridiculous statement all on it's own.

His argument is rough around the edges, almost brash in a way, but I understand his point. There are FFXIV fans out there who don't understand what a good story or good story telling is, and they say this game is pretty much perfect. No, millennials and MCU aren't entirely to blame for that, and there's obviously other factors.

But to disregard his argument because of his attitude and his use of the word "copium" is a coping mechanism in itself. It just seems that the person who dismissed his argument using that reasoning doesn't want to address the reality that this game's story has flaws.

[AnotherPerson]

The best way to understand this time travel is basically:

If we never went back in time, Venat must have lost hope in the ancients, and thus decided to stop The Final Days as per told of how she finds the People as the Heart of Etherys, not Zodiark. Her boundless love would've decided to sunder them anyway so people will find their own way forward. Thus, she becomes Hyadelyn, and is only somewhat close to Azem. However, we could still be her Champion as we are Azem's Sundered self. Even if we weren't, she would still bestow a blessing to us - as a traveler's ward (Azem being the traveler).

Hyadelyn must have elected a bunch of people as the WoL, and we were one of them, being 9/14 of Azem. By the events of Shadowbringers, she would've been too weak to continue to talk to us. However, we'd still be able to determine a way forward with Elidibus as the catalyst /energy source to go back in time and learn more about the Final Days, or a way to Summon Zodiark to once again Forestall the Final Days if everything fails. Thus, sets the moment Venat would learn about the truth, and thus she will no doubt become Hyadelyn and set us towards this path (which inevitably becomes our Endwalker expansion). With the events leading up to the Final Days, she could've tried to learn as much as she could before the Final Days happen, and with whatever clues she gets, she sends them toward us in the future (thus we learn about Elpis). This setup creates the pre-destined timeloop that then takes place in Endwalker.

Again, this storytelling works only because Venat has a greater love for mankind in general, not just towards the Ancients. Because of her love, she wouldn't purposely alter the future so we wouldn't exist and they would be able to remove the Final Days. She chose to consign to people to suffer, so WE could pave a way forward. That's how our timeline "converged" so to speak - she kept her peace and made sure she wouldn't do things that would inevitably alter the timeline so she'd meet with us again in a very very distant future. That's also why her cutscene felt so strong and powerful for me. If there was ever a starting point, Venat would do it again to save mankind.

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

The thing is she could’ve saved her people. She chose not to even give them a chance that’s the problem a lot of people have with her thought process. It rings incredibly hollow especially so that she didn’t seem to care much for the other shards, as she was willing to leave them and only let the source be saved via the moon. So her “love” rings hollow when she constantly preaches about her children but then wouldn’t give her own people a fighting chance and instead lied and kept secrets from them. It just seems like a way to further empower the sundered people which, in reality it was a minority of them who did anything about Meteion. The majority were still vulnerable like the ancients.Of course everyone is free to their thoughts just wanted to give my 2c

[AnotherPerson]

The thing is she could’ve saved her people. She chose not to even give them a chance that’s the problem a lot of people have with her thought process. It rings incredibly hollow especially so that she didn’t seem to care much for the other shards, as she was willing to leave them and only let the source be saved via the moon. So her “love” rings hollow when she constantly preaches about her children but then wouldn’t give her own people a fighting chance and instead lied and kept secrets from them. It just seems like a way to further empower the sundered people which, in reality it was a minority of them who did anything about Meteion. The majority were still vulnerable like the ancients.Of course everyone is free to their thoughts just wanted to give my 2c

That's what I thought, but how could she save her people? In the closed timeloop, there's a chance if she told people like Emet, Emet would involve Hermes and then Hermes would have a chance to remember the events that happened. Remember what she said, Hermes is needed to deal with the incoming calamities, not only the calamity of the Final Days. She couldn't risk the problem of Hermes betraying the Ancients at that point in time before the Final Days happen, nor can the convocation capture and require Hermes to reveal everything he knows about Dynamis -- especially since Hermes was going to be on the Seat of Fandaniel and that position alone has its own responsibilities. So she could plan around that event and gather hope to confront the Final Days (which... failed according to the cutscene, hence she sundered everyone to give hope).

For the part of the Final Days dying, I'm quite sure the "Moon" wasn't really so much of a failsafe for us. The three things we need to be aware of is that:

1. In the normal events, Zodiark should've never been freed (much less died) before all the shards are rejoined and the Loporrits were mobilized. It would make sense to only make a failsafe for the Source only, then. It would make sense that Hyadelyn would tell the Loporrits the denizens of Etheriys were gigantic, as mankind failed to get an answer and the ancients aren't going to be able to do any better since they can't interact with Dynamis as easily, which led to the option of fleeing. She believed that we would've eventually became rejoined and whole and the Ascians had won, had Zodiark broke free and the Final Days were upon us. Zodiark can only Forestall the Final Days. He wasn't a solution to the Final Days itself.

Up until the time Zodiark died, Hyadelyn wasn't able to talk to the Loporrits because she had directed all her energies into sealing Zodiark and talking to us (in the few times she can talk to us), nor had a reason to do so.

2. Even though she is an ancient with vast amounts of Aether, she still has a limit. Some of her Aether is tied to keeping Zodiark back, the other part is kept in reserve for the final trial. Her sundering also differed between each shard. As we learned, the First had light in most sway, while the Thirteenth had the least amount of light. We learn Hyadelyn's power is the weakest in the Thirteenth shard, which also leads me to believe she simply doesn't have enough power to keep the shards safe either from the very beginning, much less create a moon big enough for all the inhabitants while keeping Zodiark in check. It is more apt to say- the shards were doomed to fall in the beginning, and stopping Zodiark is only a temporary measure before the rejoinings finally kill her and all the worlds converged back to the Source. She can try to help them and delay the rejoining, but she just doesn't have the power to save everything. She was destined to die and the only thing she can change is delaying the inevitable by giving mankind more time to survive and find an answer. She simply didn't have the aether to create another moon and ship for the other shards.

3. The final thing to know is that... Midgardsomr arrived long after Etheriys was sundered. That meant Hyadelyn only learned of Etheriys as the "Last Bastion of Hope" much later after she made the moon. So uhh.... yeah. The moon option was more or less a last ditch effort, and one that she rather not choose if she had the ability to do so. She spent her energies strengthening us instead.

[lezard21]

The best way to understand this time travel is basically:

Time travel isn't real, there is nothing to understand. They can make up whatever rule they want, like you can only travel back in time to any Tuesday where a Loporrit used a green hat but not any other day. The thing is the bare minimum you have to do if you want to use a lazy plot advancing tool like time travel is to stay consistent to those rules you yourself established.

In ShB we have cat husband traveling back in time to avert the apocalypse. He stays in the past for 100 years and never once mentions the fact about going back to his time or being on a timer to fulfill his mission. After he succeeds he does mention that he is surprised he didn't poof into non existance and arrives to the conclusion that they created a separate timeline, while his own post apocaliptic timeline still exists somewhere.

Then in EW time travel is suddenly a 2-way rotating door but you can't remain in the past for too long and also also you can't change the past to create a separate timeline where the world didn't explode because uuuh..."hey mark, why are we using time travel in the plot again??" "Idk we needed an excuse to shoehorn more Emet Selch into the plot because twitter made a lot of yaoi with him".

Emet would involve Hermes and then Hermes would have a chance to remember the events that happened. Remember what she said, Hermes is needed to deal with the incoming calamities, not only the calamity of the Final Days. She couldn't risk the problem of Hermes betraying the Ancients at that point in time before the Final Days happen, nor can the convocation capture and require Hermes to reveal everything he knows about Dynamis

Why not? The reason why the Echo doesn't solve all the WoL problems is because the WoL can't control it and happens at random, but Venat was shown to be able to use it at will. Surely they have other mind probing methods in the past. Not to mention that Hermes' involvement in the resolution of the Final Days can only happen if the Final Days actually happen, an event that does not happen immediately after Meteion leaves Planetos. If Venat warns them early on, even if Hermes decides not to cooperate they can preemptively do something about the whole thing. Hermes resolution happens as a last ditch effort after half the planet had already been destroyed.

And finally, Venat knows what solution Hermes proposes (ie. summon Zodiark to sugar coat the planet in aether) so he really isn't needed.

[Theodric]

Had Zodiark not been sabotaged, then it's perfectly possible that he - and the Ancients - could have put up a fight against Meteion. They simply weren't given the option to due to Venat being a saboteur. Yet even a weakened Zodiark served as a barrier against the Final Days. Had Elidibus not been forced to take his leave of Zodiark, the threat of being hijacked would not have been there either.

Personally I've always found time travel to be phoned in whenever it's brought into a story, particularly where FFXIV is concerned. It conveniently works out perfectly for the Scions but never anybody else. Funny, that. It reminds me of how we spent the majority of Shadowbringers being told that the Scions being on the First was incredibly risky and that even if they found a way to make the journey back to the Source, it wouldn't necessarily succeed because of how risky a process it happened to be. Though as has become unfortunately common, there were absolutely no lasting consequences whatsoever.

As for the Sundered? They never would have succeeded in the first place if not for aid provided by the dragons and the Unsundered.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's what I thought, but how could she save her people? In the closed timeloop, there's a chance if she told people like Emet, Emet would involve Hermes and then Hermes would have a chance to remember the events that happened. Remember what she said, Hermes is needed to deal with the incoming calamities, not only the calamity of the Final Days. She couldn't risk the problem of Hermes betraying the Ancients at that point in time before the Final Days happen, nor can the convocation capture and require Hermes to reveal everything he knows about Dynamis -- especially since Hermes was going to be on the Seat of Fandaniel and that position alone has its own responsibilities. So she could plan around that event and gather hope to confront the Final Days (which... failed according to the cutscene, hence she sundered everyone to give hope).

She could literally just tell Emet what happened and why Hermes is a bit of a danger. He knew he was mind wiped. He has a duty to protect the star and it doesn’t matter if he doesn’t believe the person telling him or not he would investigate, they specifically showed us this when we went there and he said that. He didn’t necessarily believe us but due to his duty he had to take precautions and hear us out. Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution but he could buy them a lot of time, time in which they could figure out how to combat Meteion. She gave up far too soon, she had no hope ironically. She instead decided to risk everything on a plan that wouldn’t come to fruition for 12000 years, instead of just work with her people. Her solution being to split literally everyone she knew apart effectively killing them, as opposed to having hope that they could all come together and live in the end. Sorry but that just rings hollow to all of the themes they’re trying to convey in this expansion. But it’s not only that, but they then decide to try and paint HER as benevolent, meanwhile Zodiark isn’t even hardly mentioned despite him being the main safeguard preventing the final days. It’s all about Hydaelyn and Venat despite her being the reason this entire chaos exists.

[AnotherPerson]

Time travel isn't real, there is nothing to understand. They can make up whatever rule they want, like you can only travel back in time to any Tuesday where a Loporrit used a green hat but not any other day. The thing is the bare minimum you have to do if you want to use a lazy plot advancing tool like time travel is to stay consistent to those rules you yourself established.

In ShB we have cat husband traveling back in time to avert the apocalypse. He stays in the past for 100 years and never once mentions the fact about going back to his time or being on a timer to fulfill his mission. After he succeeds he does mention that he is surprised he didn't poof into non existance and arrives to the conclusion that they created a separate timeline, while his own post apocaliptic timeline still exists somewhere.

Then in EW time travel is suddenly a 2-way rotating door but you can't remain in the past for too long and also also you can't change the past to create a separate timeline where the world didn't explode because uuuh..."hey mark, why are we using time travel in the plot again??" "Idk we needed an excuse to shoehorn more Emet Selch into the plot because twitter made a lot of yaoi with him".

No, in ShB, he never mentions about going back in his time because he wants to change the future - to avert the calamity. This is fully understood as creating a separate timeline - because the calamity that changed many lives and caused a shard to be rejoined never happened.

In the Endwalker timeline, the only main thing that changed is the events that led up to the Final Days. The Final Days itself never changed.
The way SE tells the story, Time travel really works in 2 ways. If you know about the butterfly effect, many small things can change the future. That's the multithread theory that doesn't agree with the story.

However, there's also the other theory that if a major event in the timeline doesn't change, the events that led up to it is inconsequential and falls within that timeline. This would be either the "converging point" or " pivot point". This pivot point would be the Final Days - as it pretty much leads to the sundering of everyone at that time. If that pivot point never changes, the future which leads to the present cannot change, and thus the timeline will remain stable. Thus, it leads to Hyadelyn to make sure she doesn't change anything that diverges the timeline to our present point. Hence, our timeline "converged" later on when we came back to the present. In reality, she simply lived through the time we traveled.

This also works inline with Hyadelyn's power - as her laws reside over stability. She could also forced a convergence and stabilized the timeline at the point of sundering too, and it makes sense that sundering actually merged the timelines together as it did a hard reset to the past.

[lezard21]

Thus, it leads to Hyadelyn to make sure she doesn't change anything that diverges the timeline to our present point.

You haven't answered my previous point as to WHY

At the end of Elpis:

- The WoL has gained the knowledge as to how the Final Days happened and he goes back to his own timeline to make use of said knowledge
- Venat can then make use of what she learned to PREVENT the Final Days and save her oh so beloved people, knowing that in doing so she would just create a separate timeline where everyone is saved and the WoL's timeline would remain intact
- She chooses not to. Because (?)