Endwalker's message (spoilers!)

[FusiaRain]

Its a story as old as time, the yin cannot exist without the yang else one's personal growth is stagnant.

There is a little bit of Daoist beliefs in the game here and there (though I'm not 100% sure if the devs. were following that philosophy)

This game almost kind of mirrors Dragonball in a way, and Dragonball is known for mirroring alot the story of Sun Wukong espeically into Dragonball Super and there is a lot of Daoist beliefs in it.

to me that always sound like an excuse from lazy people who don't want to make things better for all instend they want to kiss up to fat cats behind a desk with their creed and pushing their beliefs on other breeding more and more suffer until people snap and are forced into becoming criminals repeating the cycle.

Its alot like what Illbard (the griffion) forgot how to spell his name said.

People are willing to speak up and want for happyness and joy but they are not willing to spill the blood and do what is needed to make things happen.

I mean I understand what's the game is trying to say. "without suffering, it's hard to feel joy", "people are stronger by having each other support them", "don't give in to despair", etc. You know, a whole bunch of feel-good messages.

But speaking as someone with severe depression, seeing meteion and the last zone actually makes my despair greater. Because for all the positive messages, when you think about it, everything only works out because we are a game protagonist. One who will always succeed, always make the right choice. Whereas real life doesn't work that way. There's no WoL that can help you solve every problem you have, nor solve this world problem (cruelty, greed, selfishness, etc.).

Ah but I guess that's just my depression talking. Obviously it's a bad thing to reach that conclusion, but what else can I do.

Which I dsagree with that completely thats a giving up way of accepting things and letting nothing change because people are to weak to fight for what they believe to fix things they aren't willing to die for the cause to make things better so they use lame ass excuse like that.

[crimsonwitch]

You guys keep saying hydaelyn abusive mom but, she had no control over the 14 on the convocation summoning zodiark.. and casualties always happen in battles and war. the dialogue says she loved people, their creations ,and never wished doom on anyone.

geez, i am convinced that coming to these forums would make one hate this game that they once liked.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

I got the message that The Village delivered, which I went into in another post on here... I'd have to re-find it.

But M. Night Shymalans The Village had pretty much the same message.

Man-made paradises to flee loss will always fail.

[Theodric]

You guys keep saying hydaelyn abusive mom but, she had no control over the 14 on the convocation summoning zodiark.. and casualties always happen in battles and war. the dialogue says she loved people, their creations ,and never wished doom on anyone.

geez, i am convinced that coming to these forums would make one hate this game that they once liked.

She's one of the primary factors as to why there's so much chaos and suffering in the setting. Which, incidentally, aligns with her name given what the FFXII character of the same name brought about.

At no point did Venat attempt to speak plainly with either the Ancients or the Sundered. She gave vague instructions, engaged in gaslighting and refused to offer aid even when and where she could. Let's not forget that she kept a reserve of power in order to do battle with the Warrior of Light. I'm not particularly fond of Minfilia as a character, though Hydaelyn is directly responsible for her demise and conveniently nobody really calls her out for that.

It's also entirely possible for someone to be abusive and loving at the same time. Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy is also a thing and arguably applicable to Hydaelyn given her glorification of suffering. Though to her credit, she admits that there was no justice or kindness in the act itself.

[van_arn]

After the last expansion cycle being difficult for many outside of the game, I'm glad we got a happy expansion. Usually I'm the first to say I want a piano to fall on Y'shtola, but she can escape that fate for a while.

I also would sit through dreck to hear that last boss' theme (both phases.)

[Caurcas]

I loved Crystal Mom's message that the ancients were scrubs and the sundered races had to git gud to clean up their mess. Also Hermes is a chode.

[Sylve]

What arrogance btw? The final days wasn’t their own doing lmao.

... Final Days were not their own doing? Really?

just 8n case, I'll spoiler block this.
- what caused the Final Days? Meteion.
- what was Meteion? A creation of Hermes, an Ancient.
- why did Meteion trigger the Final Days? Because she was empath drowning in the negative emotions of every sentient species she came across while asking (As Emet puts it) a flawed question.

Hermes, an Ancient who could never understand who condone the lack compassion his fellow Ancients had for the lives of their creations, not only triggered the Final Days but also wiped the memories of the people who could prevented it.
Hermes is literally responsible for the deaths of entire planets through his creation of Meteion.

Zodiark was never the final solution. He was a literal bandaid fix.
Y'shtola tells us why when she witnesses the first transformation.
Zodiark created a shield of Aether around the planet.
Meteion was eroding that shield.

The message of the expansion was the solution the Ancients never even bothered to try.
Had they the resolve to not let fear and despair rule them, The Final Days would have never happened.

The first sacrifice was to form Zodiark and create the barrier between them and Meteion.
The second one we see when Venat confronts the group of Ancients who ignore her pleas and instead of working to make the planet better, suicide into Zodiark so he can "bring perfection back"

Their goal from the start was to stop the Final Days and them sacrifice whatever life arose in the meantime to bring back the Ancients.
Literally opting to genocide life to have their own vision of utopia.
Only they never needed to die in the first place. If the people of today had the resolve to halt their transformations brought on by falling I to despair, so too could the Ancients have done.
But they chose sacrifice and more death for their own arrogant vision of perfection.

They absolutely brought the Final Days upon themselves.

[Iscah]

I feel like the message got clouded in hearing too many antagonists give their own bleak philosophy at length, without giving enough voice to a more hopeful counter-view.

I think I need to play the game through again from start to finish (I have an alt nearly through 5.X so will replay soon) and see if I still feel that way the second time around. But at least as an initial reaction, I preferred Shadowbringers.

I also found it too cartoonishly improbable that every society the Meteia discovered had already crumbled in some bleak way. Perhaps it might make more sense if she had found young civilisations in their prime contrasted with old ones in decay and concluded that all were doomed to fail in time?

[Theodric]

They absolutely brought the Final Days upon themselves.

I disagree. Hermes being unable to handle death/follow established protocols and Venat adopting a defeatist world view is why the Final Days happened. I'm also not sure why Hermes and Venat doing shady things means that the Ancients as a whole are responsible for their actions and apparently deserving of death? The Ancients as a whole were not callous and cruel. They sought to benefit the Star and took care in ensuring that creations were not dangerous. Hermes could not understand that some creatures are simply incapable of living side by side with civilised beings - much in the same way as how some foolish individuals will approach a wild animal and then claim to be surprised when it starts attacking and devouring them.

It's pretty clear to me that the message of Shadowbringers was a clash of like wills between Emet-Selch and the Warrior of Darkness. Both sides were carrying the burden of doing whatever was required in order to defend their people - and improve their situation. Which is an reasonable expectation. It makes sense for the Sundered to not want to roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered...but equally, it makes perfect sense for the Unsundered to not want to roll over and die for the sake of the Sundered.

Endwalker follows through on that by confirming that Venat was far too hasty to pull the trigger and never gave her people a fair chance due to being an unhinged saboteur and abusive mother figure with delusions of godhood. In the end, as Meteion confirms, the answer to Hermes' question lay on the Star all along. We know the Ancients were capable of friendship and exploration, so nothing the Sundered did is anything that the Ancients themselves could not have done had they been given the possibility.

I rather suspect that Venat being very pretty will also factor into the eagerness for many to rush to defend her, though. Much in the same way as how Meteion has her hand held because she took the form of a little girl...whereas many of the male antagonists, no matter how sympathetic, simply end up getting a stoic nod or frown. Funny, that!

[KizuyaKatogami]

... Final Days were not their own doing? Really?

just 8n case, I'll spoiler block this.
- what caused the Final Days? Meteion.
- what was Meteion? A creation of Hermes, an Ancient.
- why did Meteion trigger the Final Days? Because she was empath drowning in the negative emotions of every sentient species she came across while asking (As Emet puts it) a flawed question.

Hermes, an Ancient who could never understand who condone the lack compassion his fellow Ancients had for the lives of their creations, not only triggered the Final Days but also wiped the memories of the people who could prevented it.
Hermes is literally responsible for the deaths of entire planets through his creation of Meteion.

Zodiark was never the final solution. He was a literal bandaid fix.
Y'shtola tells us why when she witnesses the first transformation.
Zodiark created a shield of Aether around the planet.
Meteion was eroding that shield.

The message of the expansion was the solution the Ancients never even bothered to try.
Had they the resolve to not let fear and despair rule them, The Final Days would have never happened.

The first sacrifice was to form Zodiark and create the barrier between them and Meteion.
The second one we see when Venat confronts the group of Ancients who ignore her pleas and instead of working to make the planet better, suicide into Zodiark so he can "bring perfection back"

Their goal from the start was to stop the Final Days and them sacrifice whatever life arose in the meantime to bring back the Ancients.
Literally opting to genocide life to have their own vision of utopia.
Only they never needed to die in the first place. If the people of today had the resolve to halt their transformations brought on by falling I to despair, so too could the Ancients have done.
But they chose sacrifice and more death for their own arrogant vision of perfection.

They absolutely brought the Final Days upon themselves.

It had nothing to do with perfection though. Seems like the entire arc was lost on you lol.