Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

[dragonflie]

10 chars..

I actually think unsundered souls might be sundered on death, since Emet splits into 7 little light motes when he dies in ShB. I think he and Hythlo also each split into 7 shards when they go back to the aetherial sea after being revived, but it's a little harder to count them with certainty in that scene due to the color of the sky and the fact that they kind of blend together a bit.

I think it's awfully coincidental and probably deliberate, considering there are 7 shards remaining if you include the Source and the Thirteenth/Void.

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The sundering only happened once when Hydaelyn did the first one, if the sundering still took effect after, then wouldn't the Rejoining be pointless in the first place? Since it would just split back souls again when the person dies.

[Theozilla]

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The sundering only happened once when Hydaelyn did the first one, if the sundering still took effect after, then wouldn't the Rejoining be pointless in the first place? Since it would just split back souls again when the person dies.

If the sundering does indeed automatically apply to Unsundered Souls after death, that wouldn’t make the Rejoinings pointless, as the rejoined shards still would no longer exist to be sundered into. So in this hypothetical scenario, if an Unsundered soul died during the 3rd Astral Age, it would split into 11 pieces while if happened in the 7th Astral Age it only splits into 7 seven pieces (with the Source piece presumably being denser than the others).

Of course the number of Unsundered Souls that even exist, that we know definitely existed post-Sundering were Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet-Selch. Whether Venat and the souls inside Zodiark were sundered or not is still somewhat ambiguously defined. So it’s not like that hypothetical scenario could ever really be tested.
Though if I were to state my current interpretation based on my present understanding, I think Venat and the Souls inside Zodiark count as Unsundered.


As for Zenos, while don’t think he will come back to life again. I don’t necessarily think that means the unanswered plot threads (e.g. his reoccurring dream of Amaurot and the Final Days, Fandaniel’s “Could Emet-Selch have found a way…?” comment, etc.) surrounding him will go unanswered/unexplored. Stuff about a character can still be further explored even after death.

[Iscah]

Re. inhabitants of the final zone

My other question is in regards to the status of the inhabitants of Ultima Thule after finishing 6.0: namely, are the inhabitants of UT now actually alive/living for real now?
Because I understood that the areas aren't the actual remnants of the original planets (i.e. stars) that the Meteia encountered in their journey, but rather are recreations of them. And I believe Y'shtola and/or Urianger compare the inhabitants to the shades of the Ancients in Emet-Selch's recreated Amaurot. So wouldn't that mean that like the Ancient shades, they weren't the actual original souls of the dead planets, right? But after Meteion is beat and she restores "life/hope" to the universe, did that turn the inhabitants of Ultima Thule into for-real alive/original souls denizens?

Because the way the game discusses them and the side-quests treat them (after beating 6.0), it appears like they are living beings with souls now. (and from what I understood Meteion collected the dead souls of the planets she had visited and sequestered them away in the dead sun, so that they wouldn't continue to be reincarnated/reborn into potential future new lives, right?)

Or were the inhabitants of UT always alive, & it was only the specific individuals that the Scions had to emotionally overcome in order to progress through the zone (the ones that turned into black birds) that weren't alive and were only recreated shades?

An explanation I've seen elsewhere that makes sense:

The inhabitants are initially recreated memories, as explained to us while we're exploring, but that changes when we summon Emet and Hyth and they work their magic to allow us to reclaim the other Scions' souls. This (according to the theory) flooded the whole zone with aether, replacing the dynamis that originally gave it form – so the Scions' aether is no longer needed to do the same job – and this seems to have affected the inhabitants as well. It has given them physical aether-based forms and they seem to have broken out of the frozen state they were trapped in.

On timelines:

The whole time shenanigan. G'raha's original timeline is now an oddity, cause if we caused a time loop to happen, then G'raha's future should have never happened in the first place, yet it needed to in order to save the first. Cause if we died in G'raha's timeline, then the time loop wouldn't have happened, and Venat might have never caused the sundering (unless she had already decided on it, even without meeting us).

What do you mean, I seem to have a pet subject...?

G'raha's timeline has always been an oddity because it contrasted with the Alexander plot before it, which indicates that time loops are the standard outcome of time travel shenanigans and G'raha's successful "breaking out" is inconsistent.

My own theory is that the split specifically happened because he altered the past in a way that could not be reconciled with his original future, so the timeline has to take a second course but the first one can't be shut down.

For everything else, the changes get absorbed into the single original timeline.

The "Elpis time loop" doesn't have anything to do with G'raha's time loop spiral besides that his actions paved the way for the timeline where the Elpis loop is completed.

You don't need one to happen "before" the other can be fulfilled. In the sort of objective whole-of-timeline view of everything that happened over time, they're just separate loops and swirls that link into each other.

We may feel like we "create" time as we live it, but as soon as it's possible to make contact with someone from another point in time, you have to accept that from another person's perspective your future has already happened even though you are in full control of your actions at all times.

On Zenos's fate:

We just…abandon his body to the edge of the universe. What does that mean for his soul? Did it endure once more due to his Resonant abilities, or was he somehow perma-killed? And if it’s the latter, does he get to return home to Etheirys’ aetherial sea for an opportunity to try again, or is he just drifting out there in the dark expanse? He got exactly what he wanted in the end, but the fate of his soul may be even unkinder than that of Amon’s, who wrought significantly more damage.

Emet and Hyth were successfully summoned out of Etheirys's Lifestream and talk as if they'll go back there once they dissipate, so presumably (if dead) Zenos would as well.

There's a line somewhere about souls returning to the Lifestream "or joining a larger flow"? Perhaps Etheirys is actually some kind of aetherial centre point for the entire universe and "Silvertear Lake as the source of all aether/magic" (I cant remember which) is not just for the planet itself.

Tower of Babil:

A thing I'd like to note about Barnabas, however: If you look at his forehead, you'll see that he has the Garlean Third Eye, meaning just like Inferno and Number #24 from Castrum Abania, he's another Hypertuned experiment.

Is he a Frankenstein's monster or a robot? Either way, any fully artificial creation of a human form by a Garlean (be it a statue or a child's drawing or a high-tech robotic abomination) is likely to have the third eye because that's what people are to them, in the same way that the statues on the Azim Steppe are horned Au Ra.

From general context it's likely that, if organic, Barnabas is a hypertuned – but the mere presence of a third eye isn't specific proof of that.

[Theozilla]

An explanation I've seen elsewhere that makes sense:

The inhabitants are initially recreated memories, as explained to us while we're exploring, but that changes when we summon Emet and Hyth and they work their magic to allow us to reclaim the other Scions' souls. This (according to the theory) flooded the whole zone with aether, replacing the dynamis that originally gave it form – so the Scions' aether is no longer needed to do the same job – and this seems to have affected the inhabitants as well. It has given them physical aether-based forms and they seem to have broken out of the frozen state they were trapped in.

So would that mean

the Ultima Thule denizens weren’t composed of souls prior to Emet and Hythlodaeus’ magick and/or Meteoin’s defeat and the dead sun spilling out the souls it had had trapped inside it?

What do you mean, I seem to have a pet subject...?

G'raha's timeline has always been an oddity because it contrasted with the Alexander plot before it, which indicates that time loops are the standard outcome of time travel shenanigans and G'raha's successful "breaking out" is inconsistent.

My own theory is that the split specifically happened because he altered the past in a way that could not be reconciled with his original future, so the timeline has to take a second course but the first one can't be shut down.

For everything else, the changes get absorbed into the single original timeline.

The "Elpis time loop" doesn't have anything to do with G'raha's time loop spiral besides that his actions paved the way for the timeline where the Elpis loop is completed.

You don't need one to happen "before" the other can be fulfilled. In the sort of objective whole-of-timeline view of everything that happened over time, they're just separate loops and swirls that link into each other.

We may feel like we "create" time as we live it, but as soon as it's possible to make contact with someone from another point in time, you have to accept that from another person's perspective your future has already happened even though you are in full control of your actions at all times.

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

[EaraGrace]

So would that mean

the Ultima Thule denizens weren’t composed of souls prior to Emet and Hythlodaeus’ magick and/or Meteoin’s defeat and the dead sun spilling out the souls it had had trapped inside it?

Spoooodles

Endsinger mentions how the souls inside her writhe and rage so I would say that’s likely.

[Iscah]

Wouldn’t it just be simpler to just accept that Alexander and Endwalker causal loop time travel while G’raha Tia in ShadowBringers does multiverse-theory (a la Future Trunks in DBZ) time travel. And therefore just assume that Exarch!G’raha’s timeline had a slightly different history even before the 8th Umbral Calamity?

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

[Theozilla]

That is basically what I "accept" already, though? G'raha's actions bring about a multiverse-style splitting of timelines despite all other examples so far resulting in causal loops in a single timeline. (Though I am not familiar enough with DBZ to know how that timeline originated exactly.)

The key thing is, there was only one timeline until the events of Shadowbringers caused it to diverge into one path that leads to the Eighth Calamity and a second path that does not. The second path could not have formed if G'raha did not come back from the future of the first path, but now they are simply equal paths for history to take.

I feel like it's something that is actually quite simple but in a way that is hard to explain, especially if people have a fundamentally different concept of how time works.

Oh well, I was under the impression that there was frustration that FFXIV has two different types of time travel existing within the same narrative.
Also Exarch!G’raha’s original timeline doesn’t just diverge from the new one (our main timeline) in regards to the future. Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead (and the 8th Umbral Calamity occurred instead of the second Final Days occurring), so therefore the Hydaelyn of that timeline still sundered the original world even without having met the WoL in Elpis.

[Iscah]

Because of Endwalker, Exarch!G’raha’s timeline also has to have a slightly different past as well since it never had its WoL travel back in time to do a causal loop, because the WoL was dead

This is where things get really wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey but very simple if you have the right picture in mind.

Our "other self" from the Eighth Calamity timeline does not need to travel back in time at all, and in fact would confuse things for our side of the time divergence if they did. The time loop only happens on our side.

Although the starting point for our time travel trip is after the two timelines diverge, our destination is before the split. What we do there affects "the past of both timelines simultaneously" because they aren't separate things yet.

Therefore it is our presence in Elpis, and ours alone, that is experienced and remembered by the people there.

(Or to look at it another way, if our other self somehow did make it to Elpis prior to their untimely demise, they would be arriving in the same Elpis that we visited ourselves. There is no alternate version of those events.)