On Venat's Role in the Story

[Rulakir]

Hermes wasn't needed. Even before Elpis we already knew all the details of the Final Days that had led to the summoning of Zodiark, the only new information was about dynamis and Meteion. Hermes wasn't the only scholar of dynamis and we don't know that he even mentioned it. Not only did he consider it an "obscure phenomenon" when the WoL expresses interest, but Elidibus says before we even journey to Elpis, "Your understanding of what caused the Final Days is consistent with our own." Fandaniel is credited for discovering it occurred where the currents were weakest, that's it. I recall no evidence that he was responsible for sharing anything we didn't already know and could have told them ourselves.

Not only does Emet-Selch pledge himself to investigate even if he doesn't believe our story, there's a quest dedicated to training the WoL in how to view the past. Even assuming no one would take Venat at her word, the memories of either us or around Elpis would've told the tale. "As memories are etched upon the aether of the soul, so too are they etched upon the aether of the world. In this way can history be preserved." (I'm leaving out Ktisis Hyperboreia in the case that their mind wiping plot device also conveniently warped all the aether within the facility, otherwise going to the scene of the crime would obviously be the first thing to do.)

The implication that out of innumerable possible outcomes there weren't some in which the Ancients survived strikes me as not only disingenuous but statistically impossible. I'll say again, if Elpis had ended by branching off into an alternate timeline there'd be nothing for me to debate.

[YianKutku]

I recall no evidence that he was responsible for sharing anything we didn't already know and could have told them ourselves.

We didn't know it was called dynamis. We knew it as "akasa", and that would probably not have helped with trying to look it up.

[Rulakir]

We didn't know it was called dynamis. We knew it as "akasa", and that would probably not have helped with trying to look it up.

I'm talking about the end of Elpis when Venat was rattling off her list of nonsensical reasons as to why she couldn't do anything differently which, frankly, should've tipped people off as to how contrived the closed time loop was if the amnesia device hadn't already. We knew quite a bit about dynamis at that point beyond just the name and Venat said she had a basic understanding of it when we mentioned it to her.

[SpectrePhantasia]

I can imagine the segment already. You play as Venat, and your job is to run around Amaurot in the allotted time, trying to warn as many people as possible about the upcoming crisis. Your shouts range from "I'm Venat!" to "Don't listen to the Convocation's lies!" And then everyone collectively agrees to give up on using Creation magic altogether and you all live happily ever after!

What is this talk about the Ancients not "believing" her? She doesn't need to get them to believe her on words alone; she and every other Ancient is attuned to the Echo, which she can readily use, and have them all bear witness to the events she saw. She need only take them to where the incident took place. Even if Kairos, in true deus ex machina fashion, somehow negates that, Venat is also a trusted former member of the Convocation. Her name carries great repute, and you seem to argue they would consider her with the negligence one would an everyman. Emet-Selch investigated based off the words of someone he barely knew.

Zodiark was also not having 'more and more' souls sacrificed to him to fulfill his purposes, it was precisely the amount he needed to stop the Final Days. Even when he was sundered; at his weakest, before any calamities, he still was stopping it from happening with no further sacrifices. Where Venat took issue was when the Ancients considered sacrificing the newly fostered life to bring back those of the initial sacrifice, but when Venat's faction voiced their concerns and disagreements on this matter, Elidibus listened to them, and very willingly disconnected himself from Zodiark for the purposes of reconciliation with her. These are not the actions of people who are uncooperative, or unwilling to consider alternatives. Relying on Zodiark was, from their perspective, quite literally the only thing they could do to survive, until the idea of bringing back the others came about. Venat then expects the Ancients to make a choice informed by vital information that they could not possibly know. To conclude that in the years leading to the Final Days, this path she chose--that resulted in this much suffering, was the ONLY way is a very questionable decision.

[EaraGrace]

Hermes wasn't needed. Even before Elpis we already knew all the details of the Final Days that had led to the summoning of Zodiark, the only new information was about dynamis and Meteion. Hermes wasn't the only scholar of dynamis and we don't know that he even mentioned it. Not only did he consider it an "obscure phenomenon" when the WoL expresses interest, but Elidibus says before we even journey to Elpis, "Your understanding of what caused the Final Days is consistent with our own." Fandaniel is credited for discovering it occurred where the currents were weakest, that's it. I recall no evidence that he was responsible for sharing anything we didn't already know and could have told them ourselves.

Not only does Emet-Selch pledge himself to investigate even if he doesn't believe our story, there's a quest dedicated to training the WoL in how to view the past. Even assuming no one would take Venat at her word, the memories of either us or around Elpis would've told the tale. "As memories are etched upon the aether of the soul, so too are they etched upon the aether of the world. In this way can history be preserved." (I'm leaving out Ktisis Hyperboreia in the case that their mind wiping plot device also conveniently warped all the aether within the facility, otherwise going to the scene of the crime would obviously be the first thing to do.)

The implication that out of innumerable possible outcomes there weren't some in which the Ancients survived strikes me as not only disingenuous but statistically impossible. I'll say again, if Elpis had ended by branching off into an alternate timeline there'd be nothing for me to debate.

He was the only scholar. All else that had to do with Dyanmis was a single flower made longer before the final days. Emet, despite being a member of the convocation and a sorcerer of great renown know nothing of the concept, same with the numerous researchers in Elpis. All would be starting from scratch.

And the ability to see into the past is not confirmed to be an ability held by all Ancients, there’s still much we don’t know about the echo and it’s abilities. Not to mention the method we used was incredibly prone to issues, as was explained by Venat in the selfsame scene you quoted.

[Rulakir]

Hermes says he's not the only scholar when you discover the Elpis flowers and all Venat says is memories are given to fading and can prove challenging to visit, which shouldn't have been an issue with events as recent as Ktisis Hyperboreia.

Honestly, I want to debate this in good faith, but when responses are omitting or fabricating dialog from the MSQ it's a frustrating waste of time and I basically only serve as an MSQ fact checker at this point.

[Cleretic]

It should really be said quite loudly, so that everyone can hear: Hermes is not important because he is the only dynamis expert, ever, he is important because he takes on a position that leaves him the only dynamis expert with a position of authority enough to notice and respond to a dynamis event. It doesn't matter if a random nerd in the back of the Words of Halmarut knows exactly what they're looking at when they see it, because they won't be in a position to be listened to. Hermes will be, but unfortunately is a very temperamental man who won't take well to learning this is their fault.

What is this talk about the Ancients not "believing" her? She doesn't need to get them to believe her on words alone; she and every other Ancient is attuned to the Echo, which she can readily use, and have them all bear witness to the events she saw. She need only take them to where the incident took place. Even if Kairos, in true deus ex machina fashion, somehow negates that, Venat is also a trusted former member of the Convocation. Her name carries great repute, and you seem to argue they would consider her with the negligence one would an everyman. Emet-Selch investigated based off the words of someone he barely knew.

That fact about Hermes is one of the two real reasons that Venat has to be selective about who she tells; if word about the truth gets to Hermes, then Hermes falls into a depression and either can't help to his fullest, or outright switches sides. Any other member of the Convocation would tell Hermes, so all of them are out (even Emet-Selch; hell, especially Emet-Selch, who we know to be a stickler for due process in that time even when that due process is a bad idea). As are a hell of a lot of the wider population, because you want to avoid word getting to Hermes through the grape vine, either by loose lips or greater movements. Certainly, there's a lot of the population that couldn't be trusted with 'the world is ending and it's specifically this one guy's fault', especially when the world's survival hinges on that one guy's mental health.

The other reason, of course, is that it's a huge bummer. It's a massive mental load to put on someone, so Venat wants to tell people who will be able to handle that and keep going. Certainly, as we learn in the post-Elpis cutscene, the greater Ancient population are not especially good at processing bad news of that scale.

Both of these points are mentioned in the post-Ktisis cutscenes; the first by Hermes himself, the second by Venat. I'm just expounding on them.

[EaraGrace]

Hermes says he's not the only scholar when you discover the Elpis flowers and all Venat says is memories are given to fading and can prove challenging to visit, which shouldn't have been an issue with events as recent as Ktisis Hyperboreia.

Honestly, I want to debate this in good faith, but when responses are omitting or fabricating dialog from the MSQ it's a frustrating waste of time and I basically only serve as an MSQ fact checker at this point.

The fact that you characterize Hermes saying, and I quote

’Tis truly an esoteric thing, known to only a few select scholars

In a conversation going into detail on how the discovery was Dynamis was random, it’s practical effects thought to be nonexistent and is sandwiched between sections demonstrating the lack of knowledge of Dynamis and Meteion by Hermes’ colleagues,

as that…

Leads me to believe I’m not the one being bad faith. It’s clear Hermes is one of a few scholars who even knows of its existence, and the only one to actually work with it at all, much less understand it. Perhaps I should’ve phrased it better, but I fail to see how it’s not a distinction without difference.

On Venat, she herself states that the method is prone to issues, as you acknowledge, and then says it’s worth a try anyway. You are free to interpret as you wish, but this is clearly implying that the use of the echo in that way is not a simple matter by any means, but if it works then wonderful. This isn’t the words someone would use to describe an easy and certain method of information gathering.

[Alleo]

Given how Elpis works, this would be very odd. The Ancients obviously know about violent death. They might not think about violent death happening to themselves or anyone they know, but the concept isn't somehow completely alien. They create the circumstances for others to live short lives and violent deaths (because nature is quite violent), which I would say is something beyond what a toddler might think of.

Honestly I am left to wonder what type of conflicts happened in the Ancient world? On one side we have Ancients that want their perfect world free of sorrow back, on the other side we have the Azem position which only exists to help the people of the star. And Venat and Azem both seemingly still had their hand full to help people..but with what?

This is also shown with how shocked Venat was at the end, when we told her about some adventures. She says how much we have gone through.

Anyone who's ever had to have a pet put to sleep knows it is one of the most emotionally painful experiences you can have in life that will stick with you forever, and he subjected himself to it repeatedly. I generally hate his character, but that much at least I could empathize.

As someone who had to do that to our old dog I cried when Hermes had to put down the wolf. But as you said he was at the wrong working place and even Emet noticed it. I just dont get how his mentor never did that...At the same time I lost much of my sympathy with Hermes when he did not really care for the victims the wolf slaughtered or all of the creatures he sents onto us in the dungeon...what about their fear and pain Hermes? (Also they created meat eaters...so he should know that these will surely eat other creatures.)

Also sending Meteions sister out into the unknown space...when he should have noticed that even simple anger and sadness already were too much for them...honestly imo he was really no better than the rest. He was still fine creating beings to sent them out into possible dangerous situations.

After doing all the side quests in Elpis it was also quite eye opening that quite a few of these people cared about the creations. One NPC even thought about the situation when the WoL asks her whats wrong about imperfection.

Remember that, if the Ancients had 'known what they were dealing with in the first place', the only guy in a position of power with a strong enough knowledge of the relevant esoteric field of study would've either been too shaken to act, or outright gone turncoat. That's according to the man himself; Hermes is an emotional wreck of a man, but at least he's a self-aware one, so we can trust him to have probably been right. So basically: you're right, if they were informed, it wouldn't have played out the same. It would've gone worse.

But Venat knew. She knew that Meteion was able to affect the planet because the aether got too thin on some places thus her Dynamis was able to get through. She would not really need Hermes for that anymore. Also she did mark Meteion so they knew where she was.

Now if Venat could have gotten enough support before the Final Days happened (and the story makes it seem like she did have a bit of time) they might have found a way to summon Darkness without the need of Zodiark or without the need of huge amount of Sacrifcies. They did not even need a shield for the whole planet, only for those parts that were weak. Thus Meteion would have not been able to reach the people. This alone would have bought them time to either create beings that are also able to use Dynamis but for good or found a way to fight it themselves.

[MikkoAkure]

Honestly I am left to wonder what type of conflicts happened in the Ancient world? On one side we have Ancients that want their perfect world free of sorrow back, on the other side we have the Azem position which only exists to help the people of the star. And Venat and Azem both seemingly still had their hand full to help people..but with what?

Akadaemia Anyder takes place during the time of old Amaurot before the Final Days and is full of dead and injured Ancients. In Elpis they warn you about veering off the path or be attacked by beasts as if it has happened before, and as a rule request everyone to remove their hoods for better peripheral vision to better be aware of monsters. And that's just what we know of that directly involves the Ancients being violently murdered.

Considering what Elpis is and what they do, it's possible that the creations they make harm normal people on the surface. We know there are regular farmers and people Azem needs to help, so that implies that not everyone has creation magic to the extent those in Amaurot do. The same creations the Ancient made cause problems and kill people in our modern age and we have many quests throughout the game to put them down. If Azem was dealing with the same thing, then it would make sense why she wouldn't be on the same train of thought as the rest of the Convocation and would not be willing to support them in summoning multiple gods when it's clear they're out of touch.