On Venat's Role in the Story

[YianKutku]

Like other people had said, I don’t think the ancients were ever given a fair chance in properly dealing with the situation. This is the first time most if not all had to witness losing loved ones instantly in a brutal fashion instead of the usually peaceful deaths.

Given how Elpis works, this would be very odd. The Ancients obviously know about violent death. They might not think about violent death happening to themselves or anyone they know, but the concept isn't somehow completely alien. They create the circumstances for others to live short lives and violent deaths (because nature is quite violent), which I would say is something beyond what a toddler might think of.

That's pretty much Hermes's thought process as well: what if the same judgment criteria that they apply to the Elpis creations is also applied to the Ancients themselves? Venat, an Ancient, is presumably no stranger to grief and loss, and knows how to process it in her own way. Other Ancients should also have the same capability.

[Cleretic]

Given how Elpis works, this would be very odd. The Ancients obviously know about violent death. They might not think about violent death happening to themselves or anyone they know, but the concept isn't somehow completely alien. They create the circumstances for others to live short lives and violent deaths (because nature is quite violent), which I would say is something beyond what a toddler might think of.

That's pretty much Hermes's thought process as well: what if the same judgment criteria that they apply to the Elpis creations is also applied to the Ancients themselves? Venat, an Ancient, is presumably no stranger to grief and loss, and knows how to process it in her own way. Other Ancients should also have the same capability.

Basically, the Ancients were the kind of people who vote for the Leopards Eating People's Faces party.

[Rulakir]

The other problem would be "what would Azem look like if your character isn't Hyur or Elezen?". All of the Ancients are just Elezen with Hyur ears. But how would you depict an Azem if the WoL is an Au Ra? Or worse yet, if they're a Hrothgar?

I never expected anything more than first person perspective Echo flashbacks as Azem. If they did ever let us play as Azem, I assume it would be the generic Ancient model like what we saw throughout ShB.

Given how Elpis works, this would be very odd. The Ancients obviously know about violent death. They might not think about violent death happening to themselves or anyone they know, but the concept isn't somehow completely alien. They create the circumstances for others to live short lives and violent deaths (because nature is quite violent), which I would say is something beyond what a toddler might think of.

Hermes even had a problem with euthanasia though. Knowing what I do about animal shelters, I understood what he was saying about the creatures who had to be put down feeling panic and it not being "beautiful", that's all true and deeply unfortunate. Incidentally, it's also why I could never work at one even though I acknowledge the necessity of it in some circumstances, and why Hermes was in the wrong profession if he felt that way because it would only exacerbate his sadness. Anyone who's ever had to have a pet put to sleep knows it is one of the most emotionally painful experiences you can have in life that will stick with you forever, and he subjected himself to it repeatedly. I generally hate his character, but that much at least I could empathize.

However, going from that to all living beings should be put to the sword was too much of a leap for me. He went from sympathetic to psychopathic. I haven't done all the side quests in Elpis, but as far as the MSQ the one creature that was killing others was considered unacceptable, so I don't know how much of 'nature' existed in their world as far as beings having to kill one another to survive or if the lykaon was more akin to the Indominus Rex in Jurassic World.

[sidurgu-12]

but as far as the MSQ the one creature that was killing others was considered unacceptable

just a very minor thing but the constructs were targeted for termination because they targeted a single species to kill to the point of extinction despite multiple mind wipes and relocations.

[Lyth]

I'm not really sure what Venat could have done differently. Zodiark gets summoned and immediately puts a halt to Meteion's plan. Great. But then he immediately tempers the Convocation and has more and more souls sacrificed to him to maintain the utopia that the Ancients desired. This does not seem like a sustainable situation to me.

The sundering forces things into a stalemate during which Meteion can't destroy the world, Zodiark can't progressively temper or bring about the sacrifice of more living souls, but also prevents Hydaelyn herself from going after Meteion. An Eorzean standoff, if you will. This buys time for everyone involved up until Hermes instigates a chain of events that, unfortunately, culminates in Zodiark's obliteration. This is where Azem comes in without bubblegum.

[Rulakir]

Zodiark may have never needed to be summoned if the Ancients had known what they were dealing with in the first place. There are hundreds of other ways their story could've gone from evacuating Ancients from areas with thin aether, to creating localized forcefields that would made one encapsulating the world unnecessary, to figuring out how to suppress their magicks so they couldn't be manipulated. The latter, in particular, would've also significantly slowed their progress as a society for those who believe they were hastening to their own demise regardless.

It's highly improbable everything would've played out exactly as it did had they been informed.

[Lyth]

I can imagine the segment already. You play as Venat, and your job is to run around Amaurot in the allotted time, trying to warn as many people as possible about the upcoming crisis. Your shouts range from "I'm Venat!" to "Don't listen to the Convocation's lies!" And then everyone collectively agrees to give up on using Creation magic altogether and you all live happily ever after! Even Hermes, who, despite originally rooting for Meteion to destroy us all, has a sudden change of heart and agrees to abide by those terms just in order to protect the status quo that he oh so loves.

I think if two of your closest friends can't believe Azem's ridiculous story, you have little chance of convincing the rest of society and just as much chance of convincing the one person that you actually don't want to remind (read: Hermes). Venat's one advantage is that she knows how this is going to pan out, and you yourself convinced her that the future, while imperfect, is beautiful and worth saving. The alternative is to throw that advantage away on the gamble that things might turn out better. I'd go with the sure bet every time.

I'm not at all surprised that out of all the Ancients, Venat's actions in particular are the most scrutinized. I'm really glad that they made her Azem's mentor. People will get over it eventually.

[Cleretic]

Zodiark may have never needed to be summoned if the Ancients had known what they were dealing with in the first place. There are hundreds of other ways their story could've gone from evacuating Ancients from areas with thin aether, to creating localized forcefields that would made one encapsulating the world unnecessary, to figuring out how to suppress their magicks so they couldn't be manipulated. The latter, in particular, would've also significantly slowed their progress as a society for those who believe they were hastening to their own demise regardless.

It's highly improbable everything would've played out exactly as it did had they been informed.

Remember that, if the Ancients had 'known what they were dealing with in the first place', the only guy in a position of power with a strong enough knowledge of the relevant esoteric field of study would've either been too shaken to act, or outright gone turncoat. That's according to the man himself; Hermes is an emotional wreck of a man, but at least he's a self-aware one, so we can trust him to have probably been right. So basically: you're right, if they were informed, it wouldn't have played out the same. It would've gone worse.

None of your suggested plans would have worked:

• Evacuating places would be possible, we know that Ancients accept the need for that, but you haven't solved the problem in any way. Remember that eventually the End of Days even hit Amaurot; nowhere is actually safe.
• Creating a localized field just creates a smaller, worse Zodiark. Given that Zodiark was never even the problem, this doesn't solve anything. In fact, it makes it worse, because Plan Hydaelyn is gonna have a lot more trouble now that you've sacrificed most of the planet to the End of Days and created only disconnected bubbles. (But on the upside, I guess you made a new Crystal Chronicles game.)
• I'm fairly sure it's not actually possible to 'suppress their magics so they couldn't be manipulated'; Ancients make things that are less aetherically dense than them, that's just how it works, it's like asking if we could make dry water. Not only that, but actually managing to handle against Meteion requires the ability to manipulate dynamis; if you make all the Ancient creations as immune to dynamis as them, then they can never stop Meteion, because they cannot breathe in Ultima Thule.

Honestly, if you gave the Convocation--especially Fandaniel--credit for their intelligence, then you might've realized that if the 'hundreds of other ways' you can think of weren't gone for, it was probably because they knew they wouldn't work. Some problems you can only solve by going big, and 'the world is going to be murdered' is one of those.

[QT_Melon]

Story wise obviously, we know Venat's plan works for OUR story.

Does it or will it work for the known branching timeline G'hara is from?

Would it have worked if we weren't rejoined at all?

Let's just say for reasons Hydaelyn successfully sunders everyone including the big 3 and Now they have no memory with Zodiark and none of them have the memory to try to rejoin the source and become our antagonists. Would we have been able to defeat Meteion then?

[YianKutku]

Does it or will it work for the known branching timeline G'hara is from?

The Final Days resumed when Zodiark was killed, so if Zodiark is still around in the Eighth Calamity timeline, it would presumably still be protecting the planet from Meteion's despair.

In fact, the revelations of the Dragonstar in Endwalker now adds extra context to that short story: Midgardsormr is willing to protect the new fledgeling civilization, because it shows that the people there have been beaten down, and still tried to get back up again, in the face of a bleak and uncertain future. That's the sort of thing that we know is necessary to face down Meteion, so it's entirely possible some new hero in the Eighth Astral Era could do what we did. Maybe it would be a little more difficult, due to Hydaelyn being even weaker (and thus less able to protect us from the depredations of the Ascians), but there's always hope.