Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[nighttimebunny]

I'm highly suspecting Zenos wants to do something with the World of Darkness (if the writers are really going to continue Zenos), Denizens of the WoD is one of the last big bads left and have direct connection to the Void.

I think the WoD is highly looked over because of its lesser role in the story, and I don't think Cloud of Darkness has been completely defeated.

If this game is following closely with Classic Tropes of Final Fantasy...then the final story of FFXIV (one day in the future) should have something to do with the Void itself.

That's a definite possibility I think, especially with us getting a new job that is so closely related to the void. Maybe Pandemonium will also touch on it? Also we still don't actually know how reapers get their voidsent. Unless I seriously missed something. We saw Zenos jump into the hole in the moon and come out transformed, so who knows?

[MilkieTea]

Sorry that people like to explore characters in depth? You don't have to read it, lol. Also, yes Zenos is very cute UwU

I mean, there’s exploring characters in depth and there’s ignoring what they’ve done, the harm they’ve caused to the world around them, and the loss they’ve rendered unto people who trusted them - all because you just want them to be ‘redeemed.’ There’s exploring characters in depth and there’s wanting them to be a *different character*.

For example: Emet-Selch was a horrible person. He was an ‘ends justify the means’ person, and all in the hope of bringing back a person - people - who likely would’ve hated what he became. He became a monster. He didn’t become ‘redeemed,’ by the end; just understandably evil. There was no compensation for the actions he output into the world, because one cannot compensate for the lives lost and suffering wrought through his endeavors to go back to the past. It just became easier to understand.

There’s nothing *to* understand with Zenos, and to try to give him something to understand motivation-wise is to misunderstand his entire character and what it brought to the table. He was senseless violence incarnate. People like that exist and to deny him his end is to fervently deny reality. The sad truth is, much like Emet, his story is OVER.

Dragging it out would warp his character beyond recognition. He can’t be redeemed because, much like Emet, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to compensate for the lives lost due to his actions, and at his VERY HANDS. There’s no depth to this discussion, just pleading for what ultimately amounts to “make him a different person altogether, but also the same!”

He’ll never apologize for his actions, and apologizing for his actions wouldn’t even be enough because it’s not like he just did an “oopsie woopsie!”. He destroyed an entire country in his fervent pursuit of ‘the hunt’. He wrecked lives, he killed people, he had people killed. He did it because he *wanted to*.

Give him his death, at least. It was a fitting end for someone so obsessed with nothing but the thrill of the battle. He died doing what he loved - fighting. And he died at the hands of someone whom he saw as the only person equal and even better than him. He flew to the ends of the universe - not to save you, but to die at your hands. He knew it was either kill or be killed, and that if he killed you then he’d die at the edge of the universe, alone in the emptiness he made for himself. He was FINE with that, if it meant one more battle with you.

Edit: I should probably say this before misconceptions are made - I love Zenos as a character. I think that he’s fairly misunderstood by both people who adore him and people who abhor him. I think that as a character he was what we needed in a game with complex emotions and subplots and people who had motivations coming out the wazoo - he was simple. ‘Small brain. Like fight.’

He caused a lot of damage, perpetuated a war just for the thrill of battle, and hurt way too many people to be redeemed. There are irredeemable people out there and to think otherwise is to be woefully naive.

[StriderShinryu]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to make of this need to humanize Zenos either, and it falls back to my original issue in that it's perfectly fine to have a villain who is, in essence, just evil (or raised in a way that males him just evil). That's fine. It's fine that he has all of this back story and has all of the "reasons." But it doesn't make him any less boring of a character or any less of a character that ran out of things to do and be a long time ago. He could have 15 full novels of backstory but he would still be a boring, dead-end of a character that only actively exists to grate against any sort of player choice or player definition of their own WoL.

And as for him being redeemable or not? I mean, given all that he's done and, maybe more importantly, why he's done it, I don't see any reason why he should be redeemed. It doesn't really matter that back in his closet somewhere there's a sad story.

[Lyth]

I think this is a fundamental difference with Warcraft's philospophy.

In Warcraft, they convert previously beloved and lore-important characters into villains and then systematically kill them off as raid bosses until there's nothing left. In Final Fantasy, they take previously hated villains, redeem them, and then bring them back as old friends as part of an ever-expanding cast.

At some point, years from now, you'll probably be fighting the God-King of the New World or somesuch, and then Gaius, Nero, Mini-Omega, the combined host of restless spirits of the Dragonsong War, Ala Mhigo, and Nidhogg made manifest as the War Primal Shinryu (channeled by Zenos), the Convocation of Thirteen feat. Hyth, Shanoa, and Endbirb will all sit down together over popcorn and some light banter to cheer you on. And then they'll all queue up to arm wrestle you after you're done.

[Elysidelphi]

Yes, as a huge fan of Emet-Selch, I agree that what he did was horrible indeed. Yet, I am still a fan of his and he is my favourite FFXIV character, I prefer him over ANY of the Scions. Over any of the good guys. And I am not the only one. Emet-Selch is incredibly popular and beloved and people sympathise with him deeply and consider him redeemed. Just because they are not here in this thread to say so, doesn't mean they don't exist. I constantly hear about how people consider him redeemed and understandable and want to hang out with him and go on adventures together and so on. But they don't feel/think the same about Zenos. This is what boggles my mind. People justify that all the evil that Emet-Selch has done can be understood because his reasoning was love, he did it out of love for his people. And because Zenos doesn't have a similar reason, such as love, they treat him completely differently, even though, in the grand scheme of things, Emet-Selch has done, killed, had killed a lot more people than Zenos. Strictly in terms of evil deeds (without taking into account reasons, motivations, etc.), Emet-Selch has, by far, done a lot more harm than Zenos. Yet, Emet-Selch is adored by the playerbase, he was brought back in a way in Endwalker and both himself and Hythlodaeus hinted at the fact that there might be a new reunion, they may be reborn, and have new parts to play.

Even Meteion did a lot more evil than Zenos, she killed entire stars/planets, entire civilisations, over the course of millenia. We are talking here about billions of lives that Meteion killed. Billions. Zenos's murders do not even come close to Meteion's. But yet again, we hand-wave Meteion's murders, because her reasonins was mercy so somehow that makes it okay and she suddenly deserves forgiveness, and friendship. Because after the fight with Meteion/Endsinger, we do actually forgive her. We take her hand in ours and we become friends. After she killed billions of lives over millenia! Oh, but she did it out of mercy so that makes her redeemable! It only makes her redeemable because the writers wrote her that way. Zenos can be written the same way at some point. If we can forgive, befriend and adore characters like Emet-Selch and Meteion, then we most certainly can do the same for Zenos. But if we want to say that Zenos is such a monster and doesn't deserve any understanding and forgiveness and redemption, then we should be fair and say the exact same about Emet-Selch and Meteion! If we don't, then we are just hypocrites. Plain and simple.

"Edit: I should probably say this before misconceptions are made - I love Zenos as a character. I think that he’s fairly misunderstood by both people who adore him and people who abhor him. I think that as a character he was what we needed in a game with complex emotions and subplots and people who had motivations coming out the wazoo - he was simple. ‘Small brain. Like fight.’"

I strongly disagree. Zenos is shown repeatedly that he is intelligent.

"There are irredeemable people out there and to think otherwise is to be woefully naive."

Yes, there are irredeemable people out there. The ones who outright refuse redemption and change and improvement. Zenos was never properly given a chance at redemption so far. So you can't say he refused it. Like I said many times already in this thread, if you are raised in a certain way and with a certain mentality, then even when you become an adult it is very hard to see another way of life. It takes time and effort and usually help from the outside. Zenos was never given help from the outside to actually start on a redemption journey. The one instance people like to quote is to say that when Zenos was body hopping and he was in the body of a male Elezen, he briefly considered redemption and then immediately rejected it; they like to quote that and say that that means that he's clearly beyond any redemption. I disagree. That was him thinking that to himself and rejecting it fast, without much indepth thought. If it was actually offered to him by someone from the outside, especially the WoL, I don't think he'd reject it just as fast, especially after all the events in Endwalker. Sure, in Stormblood he might have rejected it fast, but after Endwalker, after Alisaie's words, after witnessing the WoL killing both Zodiark and the Endsinger, I think Zenos has learnt some things.

I also disagree with his end. He didn't sound happy or at peace when he died. The way he talked to us after the duel, the words he chose, the questions, his voice, how his voice broke at the end on the word "fulfillment", all of those betray sadness, regret. He didn't sound happy to die. He didn't sound at peace. I've seen/read about characters in books, movies, shows, games who died happily or at peace, even villains, and none of them sounded like Zenos. Hell, even when Amon/Hermes/Fandaniel died after the fight with Zodiark, even Fandaniel sounded more at peace with his death than Zenos did. There was a noticeable difference between the death scenes of Fandaniel and Zenos. Even between Elidibus and Zenos. Zenos did not want to die, of that I am convinced. Simply wanting a fight and knowing that it's kill or be killed doesn't automatically mean that character wants to die; plus that character can change their mind even at the last minute; real life people change their minds all the time. You may think you really want something and when you get it you realise you didn't really want it.

And he was obsessed with fighting because he never knew anything else. He constantly mentions "the void" and "filling the void". Alluding to how empty he feels inside. There is room for him to discover than he enjoys other things as well, not just battles and fights.

I think there's a lot to understand with Zenos, and I will continue to deny this particular end. He deserved more than that and he was more than just "senseless violence incarnate". He was more than just a monster.

If I truly believed that humans can be reduced to monsters and "senseless violence incarnate" and they cannot be redeemed, I would have never chosen a career in psychology, above all, in forensic psychology. So no, I believe that no one is 100% good and no one is 100% evil, and people can change. Including characters. Now, if the writers refuse to change a character, that is their personal choice, but it does not mean that that character is impossible to redeem. It just means the writers were fine with moving on to something else.

I said this before, and I will keep repeating: our current media, movies, shows, series, anime, books, comic books, etc. are filled with villains of all kinds who all get killed/locked away/destroyed in some manner or another. The message is loud and clear: you're evil, you will pay either by your death or destruction or by being locked up forever. We already have that message loud and clear everywhere we look. Even basic children's fairytales have this message.

However, we have very few stories of horrible villains who get to learn from their mistakes, get to atone and get redeemed. And I think we need more stories like this. I think they send a stronger message, yes, even a message of hope, which Endwalker was all about, hope against all odds.
I think that we as the WoL already achieved the impossible, we did incredible things, things even Venat couldn't or wouldn't do. Things even the Ancients couldn't do. We achieved things previously thought of as impossible by the majority. Yet, we the WoL did it. So yes, we the WoL, could even help and redeem someone like Zenos. And that would be a message of hope stronger than what we already have.
Because in real life people are grey, no one is entirely good, no one is entirely evil. In real life there are many people with depression like Zenos, people without friends, people with shitty childhoolds whose parents/families didn't give a crap about them, there are people who are ostracised by society, people considered weird, crazy, horrible, beyond help, there are people who were given up on by the ones they trusted the most, there are people who think of themselves as being the worst and deserving of nothing good, there are people so depressed they have no hope they could ever change and improve and learn a new way of life. For all these people, seeing a character like Zenos get redeemed even against all odds, it would be a message of hope stronger than anything Endwalker and FFXIV has done so far. It would be a message to them that they too can be redeemed, helped, they too can be forgiven and they too can find a friend, at least one friend, who will never give up on them.

[Elysidelphi]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what to make of this need to humanize Zenos either, and it falls back to my original issue in that it's perfectly fine to have a villain who is, in essence, just evil (or raised in a way that males him just evil). That's fine. It's fine that he has all of this back story and has all of the "reasons." But it doesn't make him any less boring of a character or any less of a character that ran out of things to do and be a long time ago. He could have 15 full novels of backstory but he would still be a boring, dead-end of a character that only actively exists to grate against any sort of player choice or player definition of their own WoL.

And as for him being redeemable or not? I mean, given all that he's done and, maybe more importantly, why he's done it, I don't see any reason why he should be redeemed. It doesn't really matter that back in his closet somewhere there's a sad story.

The need to humanise Zenos is there because he is human. He is not a creature that came from another world and has nothing in common with the human species and is thus beyond any and all possible comprehension. He is human.

There is more to him than just evil. For those who do look at the details and care about the details, those people notice and see that there is more to him than just evil.

He is boring to those who don't read between the lines. And to the impatient people. I am 100% sure the Ascians started being boring from A Realm Reborn all the way to Shadowbringers, where they finally got proper development, especially development that was in your face and you didn't have to read between the lines and put the pieces together. Yeah, it's a fact proven scientifically that today the average attention span of all people is dropping, so people get bored faster than usual; if a villain doesn't get developed fast, then surely it's boring and nothing more can be done with him. It took the writing team 6 years to make the Ascians interesting and give them an in depth story and now people like the Ascians or understand them and consider them cool or interesting. Zenos can be given the same kind of development. Plus his arc doesn't feel/seem nowhere completed. There are tons of unanswered questions about him, as well as many clues and hints related to him. I firmly believe he can do a lot more and I hope to god that they will see the potential he has and bring him back and actually give him proper development.

If you personally dislike/hate Zenos, that's perfectly fine. But there are many people out there who like/love Zenos, who see his potential and who are disappointed, severely disappointed, with his ending and want him back.

[Elysidelphi]

No problem! It's really a great read! I'm curious if anything stands out for you from it

Thank you again, I'll let you know what I think of it.

Until then, there was something else I was wondering. What if Zenos is a sundered soul shard of Venat? Could that be possible?
From what I understood, Venat sundered herself along with all creation, Zodiark included. So what if Zenos is actually a soul shard of Venat, and basically, Venat sort of lives on in Zenos? Is this an insane theory or is it possible?
Because Venat's name means "Hunt" and that's something Zenos loves. Venat is also fond of fighting, of challenges, of adventuring and Zenos does like to fight and have challenges, and he might like adventuring as well. Venat was also one of our closest friends back in the Unsundered World, we got the Seat of Azem from her, she specifically chose us; she might have been our friend first, before we became friends with Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus (after we joined the Convocation) in the Unsundered World. And if this is all true, it might explain why Zenos is so drawn to us, why he considers us his first friend, it might be because we are his first friend in both the Sundered and Unsundered World. It might explain why we are so similar to Zenos as well, in terms of fighting and rising to the challenge; because if he is part of Venat, Venat also used to fight and rise to challenges and be reckless. Meaning that both we and Zenos used to be Azem, the traveller, the adventurer...And omg, Zenos's name change in Endwalker, that "viator" meaning traveller...Could it be a clue that he indeed used to be part of Venat and thus he was Azem before us?

Furthermore, in the Unsundered World, when Venat steps down to let us take the Seat of Azem, she doesn't return to the star/she refuses to die, she chooses to live and mentor us, stay friends with us and she continues travelling and taking care of things, helping and fighting and such. This could also be a clue as to Zenos refusing to die, starting from Stormblood all the way until now, but since he may be just a piece of her (a quite big piece of her 7 times rejoined), he doesn't consciously realise why he keeps coming back from death (at least not until now).

Also, Venat refusing to die after she steps down as Azem is viewed as different/controversial in the Ancient World, she doesn't follow custom. And it is often repeated by people that Venat and the current Azem are both weird/do not fit in/do not follow most customs. This ties in with our current self, with us being the WoL and being different, but it also ties in with Zenos being different, not following customs, not being the prince he had to be, and so on.

Also also, it is said/implied that people who take the Seat of Azem are travellers, they like the freedom of moving about and such. By contrast Zenos was chained to the empire, to the duty of the crown, he was limited in what he could do, always having to put the empire's agenda first; he wasn't free, he didn't feel free. If he is indeed part of Venat/ the old Azem before us, then he would be someone who likes to travel and have the freedom of movement, so being chained to the empire like that would only contribute even more to his depression and his lack of interest in ruling and caring for his people. So this may have been part of the reason why he took over Shinryu and flew around and destroyed stuff back in Stormblood, for both the desire to feel free in flight and also open rebellion to his duties as a prince, that desire for freedom finally, something he thought he may never have until he met us, the WoL, another Azem; and when he flew all the way to the edge of the universe just to find us, he made it sound so casual, so normal "I followed the light of the stars to you", so maybe for him it is indeed normal due to his love for travelling.

Then the lyrics, "wings of hope". Zenos chose the form of the dragon and had wings and flew to find us in the middle of a place filled with despair, but then Meteion sang a song of hope. And while Zenos is apathetic and bored when it comes to everybody else, he is very different when it comes to the WoL, around the WoL he has very strong emotions, so maybe being in that place filled with Dynamis, and hope newly created by Meteion, will affect Zenos as well. Also, the fact that he called us the WoL his mirror. It might be nothing, it might be minor or it might be huge. If he is indeed part of the original Venat, the mirror part would work perfectly.

The name Venat means "hunt". The name "viator" means traveller. Both are Roman. Not Greek like Hades or Hermes but Roman. Is it all just a coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

I wonder...

[Rosenstrauch]

What if Zenos is a sundered soul shard of Venat?

In order for this to be true, Venat would have had to die and be reincarnated. Seven of Venat's shards were rejoined with her, same as everyone else. Five of the remaining are either still alive, or reentered the aetherial sea at the time of Hydaelyn's death (assuming all shards of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are bound to the whole), in which case they may reincarnate in the future. The Thirteenth's Venat/Hydaelyn is MIA, but given that the only living things we ever encounter there are Voidsent, I'd wager she's one too. Maybe the Cloud of Darkness is the result of the Thirteenth's fragments of Hydaelyn and Zodiark getting mashed together and becoming a singular being. Who knows.

But if that's not a compelling enough answer, consider the following: Hythlodaeus, a character defined in part by his incredible ability in perceiving souls, was unable to recognize Zenos as anyone he knew. This, even though he could tell who Amon-in-Asahi's body was at a glance.

[Elysidelphi]

In order for this to be true, Venat would have had to die and be reincarnated. Seven of Venat's shards were rejoined with her, same as everyone else. Five of the remaining are either still alive, or reentered the aetherial sea at the time of Hydaelyn's death (assuming all shards of Hydaelyn and Zodiark are bound to the whole), in which case they may reincarnate in the future. The Thirteenth's Venat/Hydaelyn is MIA, but given that the only living things we ever encounter there are Voidsent, I'd wager she's one too. Maybe the Cloud of Darkness is the result of the Thirteenth's fragments of Hydaelyn and Zodiark getting mashed together and becoming a singular being. Who knows.

But if that's not a compelling enough answer, consider the following: Hythlodaeus, a character defined in part by his incredible ability in perceiving souls, was unable to recognize Zenos as anyone he knew. This, even though he could tell who Amon-in-Asahi's body was at a glance.

So sorry, I'm quite tired and I couldn't make sense of your reply. Are you saying that it isn't possible that Zenos is a soul shard of Venat? Or are you saying that it is possible?

The first part of your answer made me think you were saying it's possible, but the last part of your answer about Hythlodaeus not recognising Zenos's soul made it sound as if it's impossible.

[Rosenstrauch]

Are you saying that it isn't possible that Zenos is a soul shard of Venat?

That, yes.