*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[NanaWiloh]

Yeah I did find that it rung a little hollow in Shadowbringers when Emet was lecturing us on our petty warlike nature, and Elidibus was lecturing us on terrible record-keeping of the past. Like c'mon guys, you two are the cause of at least 80% of those problems.

Maybe we'd have done a lot better if we hadn't had a bunch of melodramatic boomers spending all their free time skulking about in the shadows stirring the pot and moaning about how 'things were better back in mah day.'

Come some very true words being spoken here.

[Theodric]

I've said as much before but it's well worth repeating. It makes perfect sense for the Sundered to not necessarily want to roll over and die for the sake of the Unsundered. However, it also makes perfect sense for the Unsundered to not want to roll over and die for the sake of the Sundered.

At the end of the day, the game didn't commit to the idea that what is lost cannot be brought back. The Scions died - multiple times, in some cases - and yet were allowed to return. The Unsundered had the means to bring back their own people and sought to do as much only to be stopped by the Sundered.

It was framed as a clash of opposing, like wills each seeking to carry the burdens of their respective people's dreams and wishes. Only one side could succeed and it came at the cost of the other. Personally, if given the choice, I'd side with the Unsundered. As would others, given some of the responses.

Much in the same way as how I'd expect most people to priortise the wellbeing of their loved ones even if it came at the cost of something bad happening to a bunch of strangers.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No, because at that point of the game Meteion already had too much Dynamis to actually be overpowered. Zodiarck was not stopping her, he was just halting her efforts on the planet and he did so by consuming aether consistently. Which he did by literally eating people...

Hythlo said to us when we were waiting for our registration that after the initial half population was sacrificed to summon Zodi, there was still chaos in the world still, and so he wanted another half to fix the world. Who knows how much more he would have needed to keep things as they were and how long he could actually keep up.

This is incorrect. The first set of sacrifices was to stop the final days yes. Then the second set of sacrifices, which they went through with, was to bring life back to the planet. It wasn’t that there was chaos, it was that there was very little life left. It was never implied that it was all to keep her in check, as far as we know that was already a done deal. The third set of sacrifices was to bring back their loved ones using a portion of the new life that sprouted up from the second set of sacrifices and that was it.

Yeah I did find that it rung a little hollow in Shadowbringers when Emet was lecturing us on our petty warlike nature, and Elidibus was lecturing us on terrible record-keeping of the past. Like c'mon guys, you two are the cause of at least 80% of those problems.

Maybe we'd have done a lot better if we hadn't had a bunch of melodramatic boomers spending all their free time skulking about in the shadows stirring the pot and moaning about how 'things were better back in mah day.'

So people wanting to continue existing and restore a broken world is being melodramatic and a "boomer?" I guess the ironworks are just as bad in that case as they were willing to sacrifice an entire timeline to revive the wol and do no different than the ascians. Everyones just melodramatic and a boomer in this game i suppose.

[Loggos]

Maybe we'd have done a lot better if we hadn't had a bunch of melodramatic boomers spending all their free time skulking about in the shadows stirring the pot and moaning about how 'things were better back in mah day.'

The Ascians are clearly to blame for the particular events that happened in Aldenard and they are not the morally superiour people that they want to see themselves as. I'm not pro Ascian. But I just don't agree with the line of reasoning quoted here either.

It idealises the sundered way too much. I don't think we have any reason to believe that the sundered would really have been significantly more peaceful if it weren't for the Ascians. The whole message of the game is that there is no true perfection. So if not even the almost godlike unsundered can claim any moral highground - because they are just as capable of incomprehensible cruelty and disregard of life - then why would we believe that the sundered are suddenly so special that they would have done "a lot better". I don't buy that, at all.
Just look at the real world (and I'm going to make the bold assumption that we are not influenced by Ascians), we are perfectly fine at committing the most horrible acts of violence and oppression against each other and drive our planet into ruin.

The people of Aldenard would probably have fought wars, conquered countries, subjugated certain demographics of people, committed genocides and destroyed the environment even if the Ascians wouldn't have been around. They might just have done so in less technologically advanced ways than say the Allagans or the Garlean Empire.
I think the reason why the Ascians were so successful with their manipulation is because their offerings fell on the very fertile ground of the sundered's imperfect nature, that is just as flawed as the nature of the unsundered.
If they were so much more peaceful, that without the Ascians the suffering on Aldenard would have been 80ish% less throughout 12k years of history, then I don't think the Ascians would have been able to unleash wars and hatred on such a large scale to begin with. Too many sundered people acted too consistently on their hatred across history and geographic locations: the average people, who weren't directly tempted by the Ascians' proposals and offers of power, and not just singular mighty rulers like Varis.
(Also, I believe the game shows us several of examples of suffering caused by the sundered that are not caused by Ascian intrigues.)

I don't want to demonise the sundered compared to the Ascians either. I see them exactly as I see humans in the real world. Of course, we are capable of good things and of love, and concepts like respect and human dignity are crucial. But there is no point in denying that we have the capacity to act like absolute monsters.
The sundered are just as susceptible to hatred and cruelty as the unsundered. The Ascians only used this to their advantage to pursue their particular agenda.

---
(Note: I'm using "sundered" here to refer to everyone who lives in a sundered world. I know, not everyone is actually a sundered fragment of an unsundered's soul. But I make my argument for both types of mortals - "actual sundered" ones and mortals without any ties to an unsundered's soul.)

[MikkoAkure]

I think the funny thing about this thread topic is that Emet-Selch himself sides with the WoL against Elidibus and his own civilization in Shadowbringers after he is returned to the Underworld, recovers his memories, and is removed of Zodiark’s “tug”.

All it would have taken is for him to do nothing and the 8th Calamity would have proceeded and Zodiark would have been revived further down the road.

[Jandor]

So people wanting to continue existing and restore a broken world is being melodramatic and a "boomer?" I guess the ironworks are just as bad in that case as they were willing to sacrifice an entire timeline to revive the wol and do no different than the ascians. Everyones just melodramatic and a boomer in this game i suppose.

lol, no, acting like a melodramatic boomer is being melodramatic and a "boomer."

They're a trio of really old blokes that spend their days chewing the scenery, giving grandiose pantomime villain speeches, and pining for the good old days. It's great fun to play through and all that, but even past-Emet doesn't exactly disagree with my assessment of them, part of why he doesn't want to buy your story about the future is because of how over the top he acts in it.

[Theodric]

Let's drop the not so subtle ageism. It doesn't really add anything to the debate.

[Rulakir]

I think the funny thing about this thread topic is that Emet-Selch himself sides with the WoL against Elidibus and his own civilization in Shadowbringers after he is returned to the Underworld, recovers his memories, and is removed of Zodiark’s “tug”.

All it would have taken is for him to do nothing and the 8th Calamity would have proceeded and Zodiark would have been revived further down the road.

It's a lot more complicated than that. Emet wouldn't have let the WoL get as far as they did had they not been Azem reincarnated. His sentimentality played a significant part in sabotaging their efforts. Had the WoL been a random soul they likely never would have made it past him to even get to Elidibus. Speaking of which, he was barely holding it together. Emet was painfully aware of the burden of shouldering the fate of their civilization throughout the millennia when there were 3 of them, let alone solo. What he did was arguably a mercy.

[Slatersev]

This is incorrect. The first set of sacrifices was to stop the final days yes. Then the second set of sacrifices, which they went through with, was to bring life back to the planet. It wasn’t that there was chaos, it was that there was very little life left. It was never implied that it was all to keep her in check, as far as we know that was already a done deal. The third set of sacrifices was to bring back their loved ones using a portion of the new life that sprouted up from the second set of sacrifices and that was it.



So people wanting to continue existing and restore a broken world is being melodramatic and a "boomer?" I guess the ironworks are just as bad in that case as they were willing to sacrifice an entire timeline to revive the wol and do no different than the ascians. Everyones just melodramatic and a boomer in this game i suppose.

There being dramatic because they deliberate set up situations and sabotage the Sundered to fail and then use them as examples as why they suck and have to go.

Also, nowhere is is stated that it would only be a portion" of the new life. By Emet's own accounts anything new was going to go. the stuff they restored with the second was the planets life, but the new life they didn't expect was going to be what they sacrificed.

But EW actually goes into this a bit, Emet is horrified at the idea that they would just keep going, he explicitly compares trying to bring back people who willingly made the sacrifice as disrespectful to them and is furious at the idea.

Which really goes back to something that has been discussed ever since Shadowbringers released. How many of the Ancients that made the sacrifice would even want to be brought back If it cost new life there existent?

Like Hythodaleus doesn't exactly seem like the type who would see Emet mass sacrifice innocent new life to bring him back and be like "Yeah, this is what I wanted"

[QT_Melon]

But EW actually goes into this a bit, Emet is horrified at the idea that they would just keep going, he explicitly compares trying to bring back people who willingly made the sacrifice as disrespectful to them and is furious at the idea.

Which really goes back to something that has been discussed ever since Shadowbringers released. How many of the Ancients that made the sacrifice would even want to be brought back If it cost new life there existent?

Like Hythodaleus doesn't exactly seem like the type who would see Emet mass sacrifice innocent new life to bring him back and be like "Yeah, this is what I wanted"

This may be due to tempering. I don't think it was still specifically explained as to WHY/ (and who decided that) they were tempered. The Lopprites were kinda like "oh Glenda the Good Witch" knows how to summon better (sorry, it's just the way that was waived in the story line was kinda like...really??? People loved theorizing on that).

So personally hoping they actually expand on that rather than the MSQ explanation.