Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Jandor]

Zenos isn't a Scion though... at least not yet.

As for everyone saying Zenos killed too many people and there's no way they could forgive him - Emet helped destroy literal worlds. He was trying to cause the shards to collapse to create rejoinings. He was willing to kill literally everyone to get his old way of life back. He helped develop Black Rose which would have killed hundreds of thousands. Emet has waaaay more blood on his hands - but people forgive that and overlook it because Emet is "tragic" and "sympathetic." I'd argue Zenos is too, just in a different way. No one forced Emet to turn out the way he did. But Emet had a hand in making Zenos into a monster. If people can accept redemption for Emet but not Zenos, I find that hypocritical.

Yeah, Emet isn't going to be joining the Scions either...

It doesn't matter how much someone may like or dislike Zenos, or Emet for that matter, it would be beyond ridiculous for either of them to join the Scions.

Like, think of the things we do with the Scions, then picture doing them instead with the First Emperor of Garlemald and the former Crown Prince...

[Bright-Flower]

I think Zenos was largely there because they were playing him up to have a larger role than he really had as a misdirection. I wouldn't take the comment about 'here are the scions' super literally either, not everything said off hand is a secret clue of events to come. Zenos was there because he was an important character, if not quite as important as the build up to EW seemed to suggest. If you want to stretch things a bit though,

Zenos did help us defeat the Endsinger in the end, if for selfish reasons.

[Elysidelphi]

Yeah, Emet isn't going to be joining the Scions either...

It doesn't matter how much someone may like or dislike Zenos, or Emet for that matter, it would be beyond ridiculous for either of them to join the Scions.

Like, think of the things we do with the Scions, then picture doing them instead with the First Emperor of Garlemald and the former Crown Prince...

Yeah, Emet isn't going to be joining the Scions either, but he knew happiness and affection and friendship, he even has all of that still since he's with Hythlodaeus in the Underworld, so even if he never returns, he is at peace, he knew genuine happiness, even now he may be happy, content, fulfilled, knowing that Azem will carry on their legacy. And Emet is beloved by the playerbase (me included) despite all the horrible things he's done over literally thousands and thousands of years. There were even hints that he (and Hythlodaeus) may be back, may be reborn. Emet-Selch said something along the lines of "Now let the curtain fall upon this star, so that it rises again upon a new stage where we will all have new parts to play." And Hythlodaeus does mention a reunion. So they may be back, or maybe not. As a huge Emet fan, I do want him back, but if he won't be back, I can also find comfort knowing that he isn't alone, and he didn't have a completely rubbish existence, he did have the chance to know both hope and despair, both friendship and loneliness. Something that cannot be said about Zenos.

The Scions are disbanded as it is now, and it seems that they will get together perhaps more rarely than they have in the past. So having characters like Emet or Zenos join the WoL on the WoL's adventures wouldn't be weird since the Scions would meet rarely. After all, Emet did join Azem on their adventures in the Unsundered World so that wouldn't be weird to Emet. And Emet did join the whole Scions group throughout most of Shadowbringers (even if he was testing us and not being there simply for the adventure), so basically he's used to it by now. He might even enjoy it even if he doesn't say so explicitly (like Hythlodaeus said in Elpis).

And Zenos could join the WoL as friends, not as Scions, and he might even like it, constantly travelling and fighting with different enemies, maybe even mock duelling the WoL every now and again. Zenos could learn to find joy and purpose in other things as well.

[Elysidelphi]

I think Zenos was largely there because they were playing him up to have a larger role than he really had as a misdirection. I wouldn't take the comment about 'here are the scions' super literally either, not everything said off hand is a secret clue of events to come. Zenos was there because he was an important character, if not quite as important as the build up to EW seemed to suggest. If you want to stretch things a bit though,

Zenos did help us defeat the Endsinger in the end, if for selfish reasons.

No, not everything said off hand is a secret clue, but it's already obvious that Yoshi-P does love good mysteries, so basically anything could be a clue. Obviously not everything will end up being a genuine clue, but that's what makes it fun for both him and his team and us the players, trying to figure out which clues are the real ones.

[Tracewood]

Zenos played his part.

He wanted his rematch, lost it at first thanks to Fandaniel but eventually he realized if he helps us with our obstacle we'd be free to take him up on it. He actually earned his rematch, he's also too crazy to live.

At first I was with the "no more Zenos he's to one-note" crowd, but now I have a very spicy take: After Endwalker, Zenos is a better crafted villain than Sephiroth and Kefka.

Unlike Sephiroth, who is obsessed with ending life AND torturing Cloud because he has nothing better to do... Zenos respects our hunt and doesn't interfere (except for the whole body swap bit), but the events of Endwalker his obsession with the WoL reached a fever pitch and he took matters into his own hands instead of waiting for us to come to him. Yes, he did say he wanted us all "roaring with rage 'n' rancor" but he learned that isn't going to work in his favor. He came close but the WoL is better than that, and didn't get dragged to his level.

Kefka takes nihilism to a comical degree, dressed as a clown and wanting to end life because "Eff it I'm unhappy, therefore everyone should be too and DIE". He had no real backstory compared to Zenos, just a pissed off clown. In retrospect, DC's Joker does seem pretty boring and overplayed. Yes, Zenos backstory is that he was always a spoiled, bloodlusting, princeling but we learn more about him through the game and the online story than however long Kefka was on screen. Zenos has no redeeming qualities, he is still one note, but unlike the other two villains he wants to understand the WoL. Wants their attention, and what makes them push on to get stronger. While we are his enemy, he respects us and our prowess. Sephiroth and Kefka could care less about their enemies, they just want them to despair and or perish.

[Vexander]

As for everyone saying Zenos killed too many people and there's no way they could forgive him - Emet helped destroy literal worlds. He was trying to cause the shards to collapse to create rejoinings. He was willing to kill literally everyone to get his old way of life back. He helped develop Black Rose which would have killed hundreds of thousands. Emet has waaaay more blood on his hands - but people forgive that and overlook it because Emet is "tragic" and "sympathetic." I'd argue Zenos is too, just in a different way. No one forced Emet to turn out the way he did. But Emet had a hand in making Zenos into a monster. If people can accept redemption for Emet but not Zenos, I find that hypocritical.

Emet-Selch was tempered. Zenos was not.

Emet-Selch was a product of his culture. Zenos was not.

Emet-Selch is more likable because his motives are understandable and not entirely within his control either. Zenos, by contrast... we have no idea why he is the way he is. Its implied he was just born that way. Zenos lacks in passion. His best quality (in my opinion) is that he acknowledges these flaws about himself. He made it clear to Jullus. "If I'd had a good reason, would that make it any better?" He also has the answer Meteion needed far sooner than anyone else. "Life is what you make of it. You give your life your own meaning. Pursue it as you please."

[Elysidelphi]

Zenos played his part.

He wanted his rematch, lost it at first thanks to Fandaniel but eventually he realized if he helps us with our obstacle we'd be free to take him up on it. He actually earned his rematch, he's also too crazy to live.

At first I was with the "no more Zenos he's to one-note" crowd, but now I have a very spicy take: After Endwalker, Zenos is a better crafted villain than Sephiroth and Kefka.

Unlike Sephiroth, who is obsessed with ending life AND torturing Cloud because he has nothing better to do... Zenos respects our hunt and doesn't interfere (except for the whole body swap bit), but the events of Endwalker his obsession with the WoL reached a fever pitch and he took matters into his own hands instead of waiting for us to come to him. Yes, he did say he wanted us all "roaring with rage 'n' rancor" but he learned that isn't going to work in his favor. He came close but the WoL is better than that, and didn't get dragged to his level.

Kefka takes nihilism to a comical degree, dressed as a clown and wanting to end life because "Eff it I'm unhappy, therefore everyone should be too and DIE". He had no real backstory compared to Zenos, just a pissed off clown. In retrospect, DC's Joker does seem pretty boring and overplayed. Yes, Zenos backstory is that he was always a spoiled, bloodlusting, princeling but we learn more about him through the game and the online story than however long Kefka was on screen. Zenos has no redeeming qualities, he is still one note, but unlike the other two villains he wants to understand the WoL. Wants their attention, and what makes them push on to get stronger. While we are his enemy, he respects us and our prowess. Sephiroth and Kefka could care less about their enemies, they just want them to despair and or perish.

I disagree with that part. Just because he was a prince, doesn't automatically mean he was also spoiled. I explained in previous posts that he most definitely was not spoiled. Money/status/power doesn't automatically create spoiled children. Spoiled children can come from poor families as well. Just like rich families can have children that are not spoiled. So no, him being spoiled is not part of his backstory at all.
And he wasn't always bloodlusting. To say that is to imply that he was bloodlusting as an infant or toddler or very young child of 3 or 4 which is simply not true. He became bloodlusting in time, due in a huge part to his so-callled father. To simply say he was always like this, is to ignore everything done to him by Varis and Emet-Selch. If we want to blame Zenos for everything he did as an adult, let's be fair and blame the adults around him as a child who started him on the monster path.

I also disagree that Zenos is one note. To me he isn't. He is just written in a more subtle way and sadly, his real backstory is not even in the game, which was a mistake on the part of the DEVS. He comes across as one note because most people don't read between the lines and are quick to judge and dismiss stuff. I am 100% sure that for most people in A Realm Reborn and all the way to Shadowbringers, so for like 6 long years, the Ascians also came across as pretty one note without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. But then we got an expansion that changed everything.

My point is that stories can change, characters can change, develop, etc. New things, ideas, concepts can be introduced to make the story make sense. Like for example, Dynamis was always around but it was only introduced in Endwalker. So Zenos can be brought back and given redeeming qualities, he can be given depth and actual proper development as a human being, as a character, not just as a plot device/foil. And I believe that is very important because to have a character like Zenos find redemption, find joy in other things beyond battle, actually grow and improve and learn and become better and atone for his deeds, I believe that would send a powerful message to the playerbase, that even monsters can improve if given the chance. It would be a message of hope, that even you, whoever you are, even if you are ostracised, and lonely and have no friends, no matter your flaws and your mistakes, if you want and work hard on it, you can change and become better, you can find friends and know warmth and companionship and affection, you can fill that void finally with something substantial, and find happiness at journey's end and begin a new journey, a happier one.

I think it's extremely important to have such stories in our media. We all know and are used to the stories in which the evil awful villain does a bunch of horrible stuff and then gets killed/destroyed/removed forever.
We are becoming used to sympathetic villains as well, that all along had deeper reasons for their evil deeds, such as Emet-Selch, such as Meteion.
But we don't really have many stories of villains that get ruined from their childhoods by others, then go on to become monsters, and then they actually start learning and improving and becoming better, developing redeeming qualities after a long, painful journey and they stick around, atoning for their deeds, instead of just being killed/locked away/etc. I think we need this type of stories as well, especially in FF games, especially in FFXIV. In FFXIV, Gaius comes close to being this type of character, but sadly we don't get much screen time with him and we don't have the same connection to him as we do with Zenos who interacts with us the WoL a lot more. Which is why Zenos would be perfect for a well-earned redemption story.

[Elysidelphi]

Emet-Selch was tempered. Zenos was not.

Emet-Selch was a product of his culture. Zenos was not.

Emet-Selch is more likable because his motives are understandable and not entirely within his control either. Zenos, by contrast... we have no idea why he is the way he is. Its implied he was just born that way. Zenos lacks in passion. His best quality (in my opinion) is that he acknowledges these flaws about himself. He made it clear to Jullus. "If I'd had a good reason, would that make it any better?" He also has the answer Meteion needed far sooner than anyone else. "Life is what you make of it. You give your life your own meaning. Pursue it as you please."

Zenos was a product of his childhood. Of his father Varis and Emet-Selch who experimented on him. I keep saying, time and time again, that the first 5 years of a child's life will literally define the rest of that child's life. If they are horrible years, it will affect that child for the rest of their life. And yes, they change and overcome that, but only with a lot of hard work and time, not overnight. And when you are raised in a certain way, it's almost impossible to even consider that there might be other ways out there, better ways; people with mental issues, especially stemming from their childhoods, often do not even realise that they have those issues, for them it's normal to be that way. So it takes someone from the outside to show them that it's not exactly normal and that there are other ways to be/think/act/feel. The world in FFXIV doesn't exactly have therapists, but it does clearly have mental illness (subtle allusions/hints at it), just like our real world didn't have therapists and psychology for most of its history/past, although mental illness existed in our real world since the beginning of our human race. So that implies that people like Zenos living in that world, while they cannot receive help from therapists as they don't exist, could receive help from friends, thus becoming redeemable.

It is not implied that Zenos was born the way he is. Given his backstory, it is implied that his childhood made him the way he is. Also it is implied that Emet-Selch experimented on Zenos, further showing how both Varis and Emet-Selch screwed Zenos up. Now, maybe Emet-Selch experimented on Zenos before (and after) his birth (like he did with Vauthry in the First), that's possible, but then again, everything would start with Emet-Selch and Varis in terms of them starting Zenos on his monster path.

[Vexander]

It is not implied that Zenos was born the way he is. Given his backstory, it is implied that his childhood made him the way he is. Also it is implied that Emet-Selch experimented on Zenos, further showing how both Varis and Emet-Selch screwed Zenos up. Now, maybe Emet-Selch experimented on Zenos before (and after) his birth (like he did with Vauthry in the First), that's possible, but then again, everything would start with Emet-Selch and Varis in terms of them starting Zenos on his monster path.

I completely missed this, because I do not recall ever having come across any tidbit of lore suggesting Zenos was an experiment. The only experiment he was involved with that I know of was the Artificial Echo, and that was something he received as an adult, after Fordola received it. I might be remembering things incorrectly there, but that is what I recall from Stormblood.

[Elysidelphi]

I completely missed this, because I do not recall ever having come across any tidbit of lore suggesting Zenos was an experiment. The only experiment he was involved with that I know of was the Artificial Echo, and that was something he received as an adult, after Fordola received it. I might be remembering things incorrectly there, but that is what I recall from Stormblood.

Yeah, there are little scenes in the game that imply/suggest that Zenos was experimented on in the past, before Stormblood. The Artificial Echo he received in Stormblood is something he himself wanted and chose to do to himself. But it's implied and even remarked on by Elidibus/Fandaniel that Emet-Selch experiemented on Zenos in the past (so likely when Zenos was a child or even in-utero, which would be reminiscent of what Emet-Selch did to Vauthry). That's why Zenos is so strong when Stormblood begins, stronger than any other Garlean, because Emet-Selch did something to him in the past; and whatever he did to Zenos very likely had mental/emotional side effects as well. It's clear that both Varis and Emet-Selch were happy to use Zenos to further the empire's agenda with little to no regard to Zenos. And whatever was done to Zenos to make him so strong (long before he himself added to that) even scared Elidibus, an Unsundered Ascian. Elidibus chose to run away from Zenos rather than fight him. Elidibus was fine fighting the WoL more than once as well, but he chose to run away from Zenos. So that's telling.

Also did you read Zenos's backstory? It isn't in the game. Here's a link if you're interested:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...s_the_offical/