Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Chained_Icarus]

True! Thank you for noticing that and adding it here.

Yep. I definitely would like to see more of Zenos and feel like we will (he's standing with the WoL and other Scions in the official artwork after all) but who knows. I just find it unlikely that the guy who has survived so much was finally dealt in by a punch from someone who could barely stand.

I guess only time will tell.

[nighttimebunny]

Exactly, it makes no sense that someone who slit their own throat, be proclaimed dead, then came back to life could die from a punch lol. When I first saw it, I was highly skeptical and I get more skeptical the more I think about all the facts we do have. We've had characters like Y'shtola come back from the dead what...4-5 times? Often with no explanation. But we have a lot of explanations for Zenos. And before EW people said we'd never see Emet-Selch again, but alas, we did and he even hinted he'd get reincarnated soon enough.

[Elysidelphi]

Yep. I definitely would like to see more of Zenos and feel like we will (he's standing with the WoL and other Scions in the official artwork after all) but who knows. I just find it unlikely that the guy who has survived so much was finally dealt in by a punch from someone who could barely stand.

I guess only time will tell.

Glad that you too would like to see more of Zenos!

As for the official artwork, Venat was in there too and she died...so that worries me a bit in regards to Zenos. Now, in the case of Venat/Hydaelyn, we actually saw her die, we saw her dissipate into aether, but we haven't seen that with Zenos so...yeah. I keep hoping that Zenos will be back and actually be given a proper story, proper development, growth.

And yeah, given that Zenos is an "Ascian in everything but name" as even Krile put it, plus he's a Reaper with an avatar that's supposed to protect him, it would be so weird and so unfulfilling if he died like that. I really hope from the bottom of my heart that Ishikawa won't let him die and will give him a great story and development.

[Elysidelphi]

Exactly, it makes no sense that someone who slit their own throat, be proclaimed dead, then came back to life could die from a punch lol. When I first saw it, I was highly skeptical and I get more skeptical the more I think about all the facts we do have. We've had characters like Y'shtola come back from the dead what...4-5 times? Often with no explanation. But we have a lot of explanations for Zenos. And before EW people said we'd never see Emet-Selch again, but alas, we did and he even hinted he'd get reincarnated soon enough.

God, I would love it so much if Emet-Selch/Hades came back as well, for good! After all he's been through for thousands of years, carrying that burden all by himself, alone and in such pain, he deserves to be reborn and rejoin Azem and just enjoy life, go on adventures together like we used to in the Unsundered World. How happy I would be if that happened. But even if it doesn't happen for Emet-Selch, I can take some comfort knowing that once, long ago, in the Unsundered World, he did have happiness, joy, warmth, companionship, friendship. He had Azem, and he had Hythlodaeus. He had friends and affection. Even now, in the Underworld/Lifestream, Emet-Selch is there together with Hythlodaeus, he's not alone, he's not without companionship, friendship, warmth, and affection. So that's some small comfort in regards to him, even if he never returns again.

But sadly, I do not have the same comfort in regards to Zenos. He never had any of that. We were his first and only friend and we couldn't even enjoy a proper friendship because we were constantly trying to kill each other. So while I love Emet-Selch and miss him dearly and would want him back desperately as well, if I have to choose just one...just one...I have to choose Zenos, because I want him to experience all the things that Emet-Selch once had.

[dynus]

Sure, Zenos' family life was not the best, but a lot of people have crappy parents and they don't become homicidal maniacs.

I truely do feel bad for him, his situation sucked. But HE chose to become the monster he became. He revealed in it. Was it because his father hated him, his mother died early, his great-grandfather may or may not have experimented on him? I'm sure it played a part, but again, choices were made, and he was happy with his choices.

You can't save everyone, and not everyone is redeemable. And to be frank, Zenos didn't want to be forgiven or redeemed. Emet-Selch, Fandaniel, they were monsters too, and while I like them a lot, I don't think they were 'redeemed' at the end. Sure, we promise to hang out with them the next time we're all reincarnated, but even if you share the same soul, you're a different person, even if you have a lot of the same personality traits as your previous life.

Zenos's story is done. He had the big fight he wanted, twice even. He got what he wanted. Why deprive him of that?

[Elysidelphi]

Sure, Zenos' family life was not the best, but a lot of people have crappy parents and they don't become homicidal maniacs.

I truely do feel bad for him, his situation sucked. But HE chose to become the monster he became. He revealed in it. Was it because his father hated him, his mother died early, his great-grandfather may or may not have experimented on him? I'm sure it played a part, but again, choices were made, and he was happy with his choices.

You can't save everyone, and not everyone is redeemable. And to be frank, Zenos didn't want to be forgiven or redeemed. Emet-Selch, Fandaniel, they were monsters too, and while I like them a lot, I don't think they were 'redeemed' at the end. Sure, we promise to hang out with them the next time we're all reincarnated, but even if you share the same soul, you're a different person, even if you have a lot of the same personality traits as your previous life.

Zenos's story is done. He had the big fight he wanted, twice even. He got what he wanted. Why deprive him of that?

A lot of people with crappy parents and crappy childhoods are not born into royal families with a huge amount of power and then once they start becoming cruel, actively encouraged to remain cruel to further the empire's goals. They are either born in normal families without much power so they can't really become homicidal maniacs, or if they are born in powerful families where they could have a lot of power to do evil but once they show cruelty, someone stops them, be it a teacher, a servant, a family member, etc.

I don't think many, if any, ever really choose to become a monster. Especially if the trauma starts from one's childhood. No one chooses a crappy childhood and rubbish parents. No one. As for the fact that he continued being evil once he was an adult, I explained why in all of my posts. Once you spend years and years stuck in one certain mentality, it's extremely difficult to change, and you often need outside help (like a therapist or good friend) to help you see another way out. If you spend the first 18-21 years doing what your crappy family wants, and having trauma basically since birth (or even before birth), then you can't change overnight, even if you really genuinely want to. It would take years to change, and huge revelations. And like I said, it would also take outside help.

I believe that Zenos was never happy, with anything, not even his choices. I believe he never knew happiness. At most, he thought he knew it, but it wasn't real.

I agree, you can't save everyone, for multiple reasons. This does not have to include Zenos or someone like Zenos. He could be saved.

But I disagree with the rest. I firmly believe that everybody is redeemable. Everybody. This is my unshakable conviction.

We don't even know if Zenos wanted to be forgiven or redeemed. He barely said anything, he was barely developed. Lack of development/poor writing does not automatically mean that character does not want something or that character is useless. The fact of the matter is that Zenos was not developed properly, we never talked to him much or in-depth (like the way we talk to the Scions or even to Emet-Selch), we never got proper insights into his personality (beyond his desire for violence), we never got proper insight into his childhood and past, most people don't even know about his past and his childhood as that story is not in the game. Most people do not even bother to stop and consider how psychology works, how the human mind works, and how, having a rubbish childhood marks you for life in horrible ways, and how such people should be helped, not shunned and rejected.

See, you consider Emet-Selch and Fandaniel monsters but would still want to hang out with them, while you're fine with Zenos being dead. In that way I believe that people do consider Emet-Selch and Fandaniel redeemed or that they are worthy or redemption, even if they refuse to admit it. The way they talk about them, the way they are content to hang out with them clearly shows that they don't really consider them monsters in the sense of wanting nothing to do with them, the way they act about Zenos. It's kind of hypocritical to be honest, especially if one were to make an in-depth comparison between Emet-Selch and Zenos, but it is what it is. Most people don't care to be patient or to read between the lines or to even think for themselves, they prefer to follow what the majority says/thinks/does.

I do not want Zenos's story to be done. It does not feel done. There are many unanswered questions left. Way too many. His arc does not feel complete at all, if anything, it feels that his arc just started and he has a long way to go. I don't think he got what he wanted. Sure, he got an awesome duel with his best friend, but I think he wanted much more than that. If you pay attention to everything he says after the duel, the words he chooses to use, the tone of his voice, the questions he asks you, how his voice breaks on a certain word...He does not sound happy, at peace or fulfilled. If anything, he sounds regretful.

Personally, I hope to god that Zenos will come back and will start on a redemption arc, or on an anti-hero kind of arc. Preferably redemption. I hope it will be well-written and earned by Zenos, and I hope he will finally fill that void with more than just fighting. Because I think he's finally realising that even fighting at the edge of the universe isn't filling that void for him. I think he's realising that he needs more to fill that void, and that more could be genuine friendship, affection, warmth, companionship, knowing that someone genuinely cares about you and has your back through thick and thin. He deserves that. I hope with all my heart that he gets it.

[Jandor]

I'd rather Zenos didn't come back.

It all worked out pretty well in the end, but it was a close call, lets not risk it again.

[Elysidelphi]

I'd rather Zenos didn't come back.

It all worked out pretty well in the end, but it was a close call, lets not risk it again.

To each their own. We all have our own preferences. I guess we will wait and see what happens.

Personally, I will keep hoping and wishing for Zenos's return. It's interesting to me that I'm not the only one who wants this, others like him too, and even people who don't like him, some of them seem to think that he will be back. And there seem to be all kinds of clues/hints in the game that he might indeed be back.

Also, I know that in Japan Zenos was always very beloved, so I'm wondering how the Japanese playerbase are reacting to all of this. I hope they too or at least a lot of them want him back as well, preferably for a proper story, not just for more fighting.

[Chained_Icarus]

Glad that you too would like to see more of Zenos!

As for the official artwork, Venat was in there too and she died...so that worries me a bit in regards to Zenos. Now, in the case of Venat/Hydaelyn, we actually saw her die, we saw her dissipate into aether, but we haven't seen that with Zenos so...yeah. I keep hoping that Zenos will be back and actually be given a proper story, proper development, growth.

And yeah, given that Zenos is an "Ascian in everything but name" as even Krile put it, plus he's a Reaper with an avatar that's supposed to protect him, it would be so weird and so unfulfilling if he died like that. I really hope from the bottom of my heart that Ishikawa won't let him die and will give him a great story and development.

The reason the artwork is interesting to me is WHY is Zenos there? There are no other villains present. Why is Zenos in the middle of all the Scions?

Venat dying makes sense because endwalker was the end of the Hydaelyn arc. Venat is Hydaelyn. You can't really end the arc with her still around. Her inclusion in the art makes sense: she was basically the true leader of the Scions. A member in everything but name. But Zenos isn't.

When the art was revealed Yoshi said something along the lines of "and here are the Scions." Not "here are the scions and Zenos." Zenos isn't a Scion though... at least not yet.

As for everyone saying Zenos killed too many people and there's no way they could forgive him - Emet helped destroy literal worlds. He was trying to cause the shards to collapse to create rejoinings. He was willing to kill literally everyone to get his old way of life back. He helped develop Black Rose which would have killed hundreds of thousands. Emet has waaaay more blood on his hands - but people forgive that and overlook it because Emet is "tragic" and "sympathetic." I'd argue Zenos is too, just in a different way. No one forced Emet to turn out the way he did. But Emet had a hand in making Zenos into a monster. If people can accept redemption for Emet but not Zenos, I find that hypocritical.

[Elysidelphi]

The reason the artwork is interesting to me is WHY is Zenos there? There are no other villains present. Why is Zenos in the middle of all the Scions?

Venat dying makes sense because endwalker was the end of the Hydaelyn arc. Venat is Hydaelyn. You can't really end the arc with her still around. Her inclusion in the art makes sense: she was basically the true leader of the Scions. A member in everything but name. But Zenos isn't.

When the art was revealed Yoshi said something along the lines of "and here are the Scions." Not "here are the scions and Zenos." Zenos isn't a Scion though... at least not yet.

As for everyone saying Zenos killed too many people and there's no way they could forgive him - Emet helped destroy literal worlds. He was trying to cause the shards to collapse to create rejoinings. He was willing to kill literally everyone to get his old way of life back. He helped develop Black Rose which would have killed hundreds of thousands. Emet has waaaay more blood on his hands - but people forgive that and overlook it because Emet is "tragic" and "sympathetic." I'd argue Zenos is too, just in a different way. No one forced Emet to turn out the way he did. But Emet had a hand in making Zenos into a monster. If people can accept redemption for Emet but not Zenos, I find that hypocritical.

So well said! Excellent points.

Yes, I too wonder why Zenos was in the artwork in the middle of the Scions.

But I had no idea that Yoshi-P actually said "And here are the Scions" and he didn't actually say "And here are the Scions and Zenos". Thank you so much for mentioning this. I had no idea, but now this gives me even more hope for Zenos. I know that Yoshi-P is huge into mystery novels and dropping hints and clues along the way, so maybe even that was a clue.

And wow, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said about Emet-Selch and Zenos! I personally love and adore Emet-Selch and his story makes me cry to this day. Emet-Selch is currently my number one favourite FFXIV character. I would love to have him back as well, if possible because I really love him and want him to be happy. But even though I have all these feelings for him, I do agree wholeheartedly that he has a lot of blood on his hands, a lot more than even Zenos. And like I said before, if I had to choose between Emet-Selch and Zenos, this choice would break my heart but I would choose Zenos simply because I want Zenos to know and experience all the beautiful things that Emet-Selch had and experienced back in the Unsundered World.

And again, excellent point here: Emet-Selch lived in basically paradise, he knew and experienced genuine happiness and joy, friendship and companionship, affection and warmth, he had two very close friends: Azem and Hythlodaeus and they deeply cared about each other. Emet-Selch already had all of that; and yes, he did lose it all and then went through thousands and thousands of years of pain and loneliness, becoming a monster and doing everything he did. Realistically speaking, Emet-Selch has a lot more blood on his hands, he lived for 12,000 years after the Sundering during which time he helped kill countless beings, on not just the Source but all of its reflections as well. His kill count is incredibly high due to both his very long life-span and also because his kill count extended to the whole star plus all of its reflections.
By comparison, Zenos is only in his mid or late 20s and his kill count doesn't even encompass the whole star itself, and definitely does not touch the other reflections at all.
Another killer with a huge kill count is Meteion who killed entire stars/planets/civilisations also over thousands and thousands of years.
Both Meteion and Emet-Selch are embraced/beloved by the community, while Zenos is rejected.
It makes no damn sense to me.

Here we have at least 2 killers/monsters who are in all ways worse/have higher killer counts over the span of thousands and thousands of years and over entire stars: Emet-Selch and Meteion
And here we have one other killer/monster, who is not even 30, or is at most 30, and whose kill count doesn't even extend to the whole entire star.

And yet, Emet-Selch and Meteion are forgiven, are considered redeemable, people like them, people are fond of them, people want to hang out with them.
And the same people reject and hate on Zenos.

It really is hypocritical if you really analyse it down to its finest details. People can find redeemable qualities in villains like Meteion and Emet-Selch who killed millions or billions over the course of thousands of years and entire stars, but they cannot find anything redeemable about Zenos who's not even 30 and whose murders did not even encompass the whole star. In fact, it was Zenos who stopped/was against the Black Rose, while Emet-Selch wanted it. People act like a character who is 26-30 can never ever change, improve, learn, but characters like Emet-Selch and Meteion who have done the same murders for thousands of years they can change, they can be found with redeeming qualities. Oh, just because Emet-Selch did it out of love for his fallen world and friends, and because Meteion did it out of mercy, those things make them absolutely redeemable, but because Zenos doesn't have such reasons, he is beyond any and all kind of redemption. I will never ever agree with this line of thinking.