Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[ForteNightshade]

The WoL is Azem.

That isn't how reincarnation works. We simply embody Azem's spirit but are fundamentally a different person whose actions and personality can and does vary wildly. Have you noticed how since the introduction of that revelation, every mention of Azem has been extremely vague? That isn't a coincidental but the writers intentionally not trying to canonize character traits players may not have envisioned. A clear example of this happens in Elpis. Hermes, Amon and Fandaniel all share the same reincarnated spirit yet are all entirely different characters. Hermes wallows in the despair and belief life has no greater meaning or purpose. In fact, he's all but consumed by nihilism. Fandaniel revels in it. He's eccentric and overtly confrontation which directly contradicts Hermes who only attacks us when we provoke his beliefs.

Azem doesn't exist nor is Zenos challenging Azem as the WoL isn't them any longer but their own person.

[Chained_Icarus]

That isn't how reincarnation works. We simply embody Azem's spirit but are fundamentally a different person whose actions and personality can and does vary wildly. Have you noticed how since the introduction of that revelation, every mention of Azem has been extremely vague?

It isn't vague though. They explicitly talk about them being a thrill seeker. Hytho recounts a time Azem ran into a volcano on the verge of eruption. Venat (the previous Azem in title) talks about how a thirst for adventure and challenge is part of what that title entails. They believe you're Azem's familiar because they specifically think Azem is either busy with another adventure or because Azem is up to something. Hytho also talks about Emet going on crazy adventures with Azem.

I know the reincarnation for us / Azem is not 1:1. But look at the other shard we know of: Ardbert. He's also an adventurer who keep seeking larger challenges until he was hailed a hero.

Every single instance of Azem that we've heard of or seen is that of a thrill seeker and challenger. Our WoL constantly chooses to do the same even when not asked. Which was my original point to begin with: the WoL is a character in the story and not a blank slate self insert. We mold a lot of their outward expression but they do have set goals and motives outside of player choice.

[Chained_Icarus]

Hermes, Amon and Fandaniel all share the same reincarnated spirit yet are all entirely different characters. Hermes wallows in the despair and belief life has no greater meaning or purpose. In fact, he's all but consumed by nihilism. Fandaniel revels in it. He's eccentric and overtly confrontation which directly contradicts Hermes who only attacks us when we provoke his beliefs.

He's a unique case. Hermes had his memory wiped. Amon didn't know he was an Ascian because he was sundered until they reached back out to him. Fandaniel is him breaking down over several lifetimes after Amon. He's not like Emet or Venat in that case.

[nighttimebunny]

So I finally did the reaper job quests and I found something a little interesting. It's kind of a spoiler but it's not really that critical tbh. I think you might enjoy it.

The main quest NPC, Drusilla, almost gets killed by the main antagonist of the questline, an evil voidsent but she survives because of her avatar/its soul. He tries to kill her AGAIN and she is basically dead, laying there lifeless, but then she survives once again saying "You didn't finish the job." I think we can apply to this Zenos for sure. I'm actually baffled about how powerful he is (nearly a full on Ascian, reaper with a voidsent which apparently can make reapers almost immortal, can turn into Shinryu lol) that at this point I'm extremely skeptical he's dead. With him being in that realm of hope, if/when he wakes up, maybe he'll wish to be back home? Like he wished the WoL back to the Scions. Then we get our long awaited redemption arc. <3

Also when you talk to Drusilla about reapers, she seems to know a lot about the Thirteenth shard. And mentions souls (forgot what she said exactly) I'm almost 100% sure Zenos's avatar is Azem's shard on the Thirteenth.

[Elysidelphi]

So I finally did the reaper job quests and I found something a little interesting. It's kind of a spoiler but it's not really that critical tbh. I think you might enjoy it.

The main quest NPC, Drusilla, almost gets killed by the main antagonist of the questline, an evil voidsent but she survives because of her avatar/its soul. He tries to kill her AGAIN and she is basically dead, laying there lifeless, but then she survives once again saying "You didn't finish the job." I think we can apply to this Zenos for sure. I'm actually baffled about how powerful he is (nearly a full on Ascian, reaper with a voidsent which apparently can make reapers almost immortal, can turn into Shinryu lol) that at this point I'm extremely skeptical he's dead. With him being in that realm of hope, if/when he wakes up, maybe he'll wish to be back home? Like he wished the WoL back to the Scions. Then we get our long awaited redemption arc. <3

Also when you talk to Drusilla about reapers, she seems to know a lot about the Thirteenth shard. And mentions souls (forgot what she said exactly) I'm almost 100% sure Zenos's avatar is Azem's shard on the Thirteenth.

Wow, thank you for this information! I really really must do the Reaper questline as well now. People keep telling me how great it is and I kept putting it off but now I really want to do it for myself and analyse each and every word, scene, gesture, facial expression, tone of voice, etc.

Thank you also for keeping my hope alive and for contributing to this thread, your replies often make me smile and I felt like saying I love you to you and giving you a huge hug in this explosion of affection because you manage to give me so much hope, and that means so much to me, more than these words could ever convey.

Since the Thirteenth Shard keeps being mentioned here and there, I get the feeling that it will definitely come to play a big role in the future. That would be so interesting! We already restored one shard that was overwhelmed by Light, so it would make thematic sense to also restore a shard overwhelmed by Darkness.

However, I must ask you, why are you almost 100% sure that Zenos's avatar is Azem's shard from the Thirteenth? That theory left me shocked and I really want to know more about it, even if it's just speculation. But since you seem so sure, I definitely, definitely want to know more!

Wait wait...actually...wouldn't that be really bad though? If Zenos's avatar was Azem's shard from the Thirteenth? I mean...if that was true...would that mean that us the WoL will have to merge with Zenos's avatar at some point (the same way we did with Ardbert) meaning that Zenos would be left without an avatar? What happens to a Reaper if they lose their avatar? Can they get another one? Has the Reaper questline addressed that?
Or could Zenos change back to Samurai, if he lost his avatar? Or even change to another job/new job?
What are your thoughts on these things?

Also, on a similar note, you do not think that Unukalhai is actually Azem from the Thirteenth and that he might merge with us at some point? His story is also not wrapped up and there are also many questions left unanswered about him too. So I think there are definitely plans about his character as well.

[ForteNightshade]

It isn't vague though. They explicitly talk about them being a thrill seeker. Hytho recounts a time Azem ran into a volcano on the verge of eruption. Venat (the previous Azem in title) talks about how a thirst for adventure and challenge is part of what that title entails. They believe you're Azem's familiar because they specifically think Azem is either busy with another adventure or because Azem is up to something. Hytho also talks about Emet going on crazy adventures with Azem.

I know the reincarnation for us / Azem is not 1:1. But look at the other shard we know of: Ardbert. He's also an adventurer who keep seeking larger challenges until he was hailed a hero.

Every single instance of Azem that we've heard of or seen is that of a thrill seeker and challenger. Our WoL constantly chooses to do the same even when not asked. Which was my original point to begin with: the WoL is a character in the story and not a blank slate self insert. We mold a lot of their outward expression but they do have set goals and motives outside of player choice.

Describing someone as a "thrill seeker" is the very definition of vague. In fact, they literally use it whenever referencing random adventurers. Such a description would easily fit Alise, Estinien, Thancred and even Alphinaud to varying degrees. A several points the story posits how adventurers seek challenges. Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch sense your soul and its familiarity. It has nothing to do with your personality or because "Azem is up to something."

You mean Ardbert who was an ordinary adventurer who simply decided to put together a ragtag group? The same Ardbert who failed as a hero, unwittingly caused the Flood of Light to engulf most of the known world and who was coerced by Elidibus into sacrificing his body to cross over into the Source and kill us? Not exactly characteristics of a thrill seeker or altruistic adventurer the likes of which Azem is purported to be. If anything, Ardbert further illustrate how fundamentally different each reincarnated soul can be.

Except Yoshida has said himself they keep the WoL relatively vague to allow a self-insert of sorts. Naturally, the WoL is on rails because without doing so they cannot tell a cohesive story, but the character is written to be a self-insert.

He's a unique case. Hermes had his memory wiped. Amon didn't know he was an Ascian because he was sundered until they reached back out to him. Fandaniel is him breaking down over several lifetimes after Amon. He's not like Emet or Venat in that case.

This is downright hypocritical. You can't argue we're the embodiment of Azem and all their characteristics only to claim Hermes is unique when he doesn't suit your argument. Furthermore, we also weren't aware of being sundered until post-Shadowbringers.

[Elysidelphi]

I will repost this here because I think it's relevant and important overall and it applies to many plot lines, places, and characters, including obviously to Zenos:

Endwalker mainly ended the Hydaelyn-Zodiark saga, everything else, even the Ancients, were left open, to possibly be brought back. Hell, there's even speculation than even Zodiark might be brought back/or his aether might affect things in the future/distant future. Zenos himself wasn't tied with Hydaelyn/Zodiark and didn't care about them and if their stories are done forever, that doesn't mean his story is done forever, especially since there are so many questions left unanswered about him and he still has potential for a lot more as a character, he isn't fully developed.

Furthermore, there was an interview with Yoshi-P saying that he loved to read mystery/thriller/detective novels where the writer slowly feeds the reader clues and hints along the way only for things to be revealed at the end of the book; Yoshi-P was saying that he loved trying to put the pieces together while reading the book, he loved trying to figure things out; and if he didn't figure things out by the time they were all revealed at the end, he would actually go back and read the book again, focusing on the clues/details/hints, he's that passionate about mysteries and things being revealed slowly. And he said that he tried to do the same with FFXIV, to reveal things slowly and feed the players hints and clues along the way. And if you're into lore and care about details, you will notice that the writing team has done that over the years: they have been sprinkling hints and clues along the way, with many of them coming to a conclusion or revelation years later. For example, the Ascians, Zodiark and Hydaelyn have been around since 2.0., since A Realm Reborn. And we were given clues and hints about them for all these years. It took them 8-10 years to reveal the truth about Ascians/Ancients (about Emet-Selch, Elidibus) and about Zodiark and Hyadelyn. That's why I hope that they are doing the same with Zenos and he will be back; because they fed us many hints/clues about him but also left many unanswered questions about him. Since Yoshi-P loves mystery novels and putting the puzzle pieces together, I don't think he will leave too many questions answered, not just about Zenos but about Silvertear and many other characters, places, plot lines, etc. But I think it will be done slowly, building it up, as they have already done with the Ascians and Zodiark/Hyadaelyn.

This video is interesting and relevant to what I've said and to my line of thinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-iKZKOa6Hc (Yoshi-P's Keeping A Secret From Us...by Bellular Gaming)


"In some ways, these mysteries are more like puzzles than stories. Mystery authors have to squeeze in all sorts of clues for the reader... while also keeping them subtle enough that they won't be noticed." ~ Yoshi-P

"So it's much more fun to read them as puzzles to be solved rather than regular novels." ~ Yoshi-P

"He says his style of reading is very, very slow. Clues can come in dialogue, exposition, or even just simple scene descriptions."

"So you can't overlook a single word. Thus, it is important to not rush through the book." ~ Yoshi-P

"If a scene feels off, like it doesn't make sense, or not all the information adds up, then that might be a clue."

[nighttimebunny]

I don't know too much about Unukalhai but I'd love to know more about him. I really think we might be exploring the Thirteenth Shard soon especially with having reaper introduced. Maybe Zenos can help us :,) That actually sounds plausible!

As for his avatar, it really is kind of tinfoil since we have almost no information. I guess when Yoshi P said something like "pay attention to his avatar, it might be his new best friend" something along those lines, I immediately thought of Azem. I feel like the connection between us and him is so strong that it would make sense. I have no other theories for what his avatar could be at the moment, what do you think it could be?

They did not address it, but I'm pretty they could get a new avatar easily, since the voidsent soul is separate from the host's. They just act as a barrier of protection. So I think Zenos would be fine if we did end up merging with the shard. I really recommend trying reaper! It's fun being the same class as him and the quests were definitely interesting.

Also, thank you for this whole thread!! It's made me super happy, so hugs to you!

[Elysidelphi]

I don't know too much about Unukalhai but I'd love to know more about him. I really think we might be exploring the Thirteenth Shard soon especially with having reaper introduced. Maybe Zenos can help us :,) That actually sounds plausible!

As for his avatar, it really is kind of tinfoil since we have almost no information. I guess when Yoshi P said something like "pay attention to his avatar, it might be his new best friend" something along those lines, I immediately thought of Azem. I feel like the connection between us and him is so strong that it would make sense. I have no other theories for what his avatar could be at the moment, what do you think it could be?

They did not address it, but I'm pretty they could get a new avatar easily, since the voidsent soul is separate from the host's. They just act as a barrier of protection. So I think Zenos would be fine if we did end up merging with the shard. I really recommend trying reaper! It's fun being the same class as him and the quests were definitely interesting.

Also, thank you for this whole thread!! It's made me super happy, so hugs to you!

You should definitely explore Unukalhai's story, it's tied to the Thirteenth shard. If you do the trials from Heavensward, they explore his story a lot. If I remember correctly, even the Eden raids from Shadowbringers explore him a bit. I won't go into details because I don't want to spoil you, hope you'll enjoy his story!

Hmm, good point... I guess that Zenos's avatar could indeed be Azem's soul shard from the Thirteenth based on what Yoshi-P said. That would be interesting to explore how Zenos ended up changing to Reaper and finding that particular avatar out of all the other options out there and how he got that avatar in particular to work with him...So much potential for storytelling there! Do avatars talk to their masters? Like do they have an actual relationship beyond the battlefield? In which they talk and such?

But other than that, I was wondering, does the way Zenos's avatar look or its attacks/abilities offer us any clues/hints as to whom it might be?

Personally, I'd be worried if Zenos's avatar was indeed Azem's soul shard from the Thirteenth just because I'd worry that we the WoL would end up merging with it at some point and I'd worry about how that would affect Zenos, as in, I wouldn't want to kill him yet again. Never again! But you said that the voidsent soul is separate from the host's making Zenos safe, so I hope that's true. But then again, this leads to another question I have...

So...Reapers are apparently almost immortal due to their job as a Reaper but also due to their avatars, right? Their avatars do not let them die, is that right? Like in the Reaper questline, when Drusilla was almost dead the second time around, what kept her alive or saved her? Her avatar or something else? Was that explained in the questline?

Because my question is the following: if Reapers cannot be killed "normally" because their avatars will keep them alive, does that work the other way around as well? As in, if the avatar gets killed/absorbed/merged with, would that kill the Reaper/host?

I think it would be pretty interesting if Zenos's avatar turned out to be Azem's soul shard from the Thirteenth, but like I said, it would also worry me a lot, and I'd only want this turn of events if either:
1. we don't kill/merge with that avatar at all, ever
or
2. we do kill/merge with that avatar but Zenos remains alive and either gets a new avatar or changes jobs

Other than that...maybe Zenos's avatar is his own soul shard from the Thirteenth. Or maybe it's the soul shard of one of the sundered Ascians, such as Hermes/Fandaniel or really any other sundered Ascian and we would get to explore the story of that Ascian as well. Or it could also be the soul shard of the emperor Xande, given his importance in the story. Or it could be the sundered part of Zodiark himself! Or even of Hydaelyn herself. Or it could be the soul shard of one of the Scions/friends of the WoL. Other options for that avatar's identity could be the soul shard of either Haurchefant or Minfilia, as either would hit pretty hard emotionally. Or obviously it could be the soul shard of an entirely new character that will get explored in future expansions/patches. So many possibilities. Whoever that avatar is, I hope it will have a powerful, deep impact.

I'm really glad you've been enjoying this thread, I'm always happy to meet other people who like/understand/want more of Zenos and don't just simply reject him as useless/boring. I adore people who can read between the lines and analyse things in-depth, especially those who are happy to give a villain a second (proper) chance.

[nighttimebunny]

I never want to kill him again either, I don't think they'd make us a third time :P I noticed that his avatar covers both its eyes with a different set of hands. I wonder why? Whose hands are those and why does it have to hide its eyes?

I also found this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...fxii_crackpot/ I don't know much about Occuria but it's really interesting that they have some similarities in appearance

Other than Zenos being a reaper, he is basically an Ascian, right? He can see soul colors, body swap, survived suicide. Elidibus was too scared to fight him, why? And since we can only kill an Ascian by trapping them in and blasting them with aether, is it safe to say he's alive? The only issue is how exactly he will come back to earth. Does he want to? Where else would he go? And maybe we could see him there?

I love finding little clues and trying to put them together!