Meteion vs WoW's The Jailer (Spoilers)

[KatsuraJun]

Well, I didn't write the story, I'm just explaining it lol. I suppose all I can ask you is: is the sole reason you decide to get out of bed every day "because god" and nothing else?

It doesn't have to be something big. "It's the little things in life, eh?"

Everyone has things personal to them that make life worth living... I'd hope, at least.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

You should stay far away from JRPGs then, because this is pretty standard fare for them.

In JRPGs I'm not my character.

Xenogears was awesome, the lore, story, world, morals. But at the end of the day it's another world and characters a part from you.

In FFXIV it's another world but we are our character. You can't just handwave it off like 'i don't support that.'

I guess it could be argued the gods in FFXIV didn't create everything even existence itself and aren't love itself, whereas ours is, so they don't really have a choice to depend on a REAL god. Just man pretending to be.

Guess that will be my reasoning.

[Cilia]

The problem with the Jailer (or Zovaal, if you prefer) is that he was retconned into being the main antagonist of the entire franchise. Every single piece on the board was rewritten so as to have him pulling the strings, from before even Orcs & Humans all the way up until Battle for Azeroth and into Shadowlands. Furthermore despite being talked up as a big threat, the exact details of his plan remain extremely vague throughout the expansion - it was theorized the Arbiter was crafted as his replacement (which turned out to be true), but so what? Why is he doing what he is, other than to reclaim his "rightful" position as the judge of the dead? Why should we agree with him, other than Sylvanas' "death is unfair" nonsense, and considering his behavior makes it abundantly clear he's up to no good?

Meteion isn't antagonistic on her own, unlike Zovaal. She just represents existential despair due to the nature of her existence and how the metaphysics of the world work, and is responsible for a calamity exposited upon in just the previous expansion. She hasn't been pulling two dozen strings throughout the game's life, and isn't used as an explanation for the horrid actions of other characters (e.g. Sylvanas burning down Teldrassil and genociding the Night Elves for Zovaal).

[KatsuraJun]

I guess it could be argued the gods in FFXIV didn't create everything even existence itself and aren't love itself, whereas ours is, so they don't really have a choice to depend on a REAL god. Just man pretending to be.

It has nothing to do with whether they did or didn't create everything. In a sense, the Ancients could create anything they wanted to create, and in another sense, I think it's hard to describe what Venat/Hydaelyn feel as anything but boundless unconditional love for humanity. But they don't define why we choose to suffer and live, rather than embrace the "peace" of a nihilistic self-destruction. We make the best out of the lives we're given, no matter how uniquely bitter and painful it may be at times.

It feels like you're just being disingenuous about it, if you're trying to use the "power" of the gods as a way to handwave the entire philosophical foundations behind the literal entire game. Even supposing they were omniscient, it still doesn't mean we don't independently prescribe our own meaning to our own lives.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

It has nothing to do with whether they did or didn't create everything. In a sense, the Ancients could create anything they wanted to create, and in another sense, I think it's hard to describe what Venat/Hydaelyn feel as anything but boundless unconditional love for humanity. But they don't define why we choose to suffer and live, rather than embrace the "peace" of a nihilistic self-destruction. We make the best out of the lives we're given, no matter how uniquely bitter and painful it may be at times.

It feels like you're just being disingenuous about it, if you're trying to use the "power" of the gods as a way to handwave the entire philosophical foundations behind the literal entire game. Even supposing they were omniscient, it still mean we don't independently prescribe our own meaning to our own lives.

Disingenuous? I'm trying to find a reason I can still play this damn game, so sorry you're against that.

I'm saying IRL Jehovah created everything even the universe around. Thus we owe it to him to worship, and only his kingdom can bring about true hope and end sufffering. In the game, they have creators but no one creator that is owed and is the end-all to all evil. A god that is love itself. That we can rely on. They only had themselves and false gods to rely on.

That is the difference that allows it.

[KatsuraJun]

It's disingenuous because you're kinda ignoring what the game is literally trying to say in favor of crafting a narrative that lets you continue enjoying the game guilt-free against whatever you believe in.

If that's not disingenuous then I'm not sure what is. If your belief system isn't compatible with what the writers were trying to express, wouldn't it be more honest, to, y'know, confront it? Instead of trying to have your cake and eat it too. But what do I know, I guess...?

[ty_taurus]

Disingenuous? I'm trying to find a reason I can still play this damn game, so sorry you're against that.

I'm saying IRL Jehovah created everything even the universe around. Thus we owe it to him to worship, and only his kingdom can bring about true hope and end sufffering. In the game, they have creators but no one creator that is owed and is the end-all to all evil. A god that is love itself. That we can rely on. They only had themselves and false gods to rely on.

That is the difference that allows it.

I really don't think the public forums of an MMO is the place to be pushing one's own religion, and I imagine it's a very quick way to get threads closed. Faith is ultimately not the same as fact--it is one's own personal choice, and it would be respectful for each of us not parade our own faiths as objective truth in a setting like this.

Regardless, though, we're ultimately talking about a game and not real life. Playing a game does not inherently mean you are condoning the actions of the characters on screen in the real world. I don't eat meat, but that doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite for having my character in game eating fried chicken when I go raiding. It's about making the distinction between what is fiction and what is reality.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

It's disingenuous because you're kinda ignoring what the game is literally trying to say in favor of crafting a narrative that lets you continue enjoying the game guilt-free against whatever you believe in.

If that's not disingenuous then I'm not sure what is. If your belief system isn't compatible with what the writers were trying to express, wouldn't it be more honest, to, y'know, confront it? Instead of trying to have your cake and eat it too. But what do I know, I guess...?

It's not disengenous.

THEY DO NOT HAVE A ACTUAL GOD. We were introduced to the Universe, if the Ancients didn't know it, then obviously they didn't create the universe itself just their planets species. They don't have an all-time creator god of EVERYTHING. We do. Or at least our beliefs say we do. So they had no one to fall back on that could snap the issue with Meteion away, or who created life to never have suffering until sin.

Our origin stories are different. Their gods turned out to be false and through belief and aether. Our god would have created the aether itself if that were our world. So until we know the origins of the 12 and if they are real or just man-made too.

Then the universe are completely different.

[KatsuraJun]

So they had no one to fall back on that could snap the issue with Meteion away

See, I'm not sure how you don't seem to see that what you said there literally goes against the entire theme of the story, which is, yes, meant to parallel real life philosophical concepts.

If you have a problem with the philosophy that inspired the writing of the game... then you have a problem with the philosophy that inspired the writing of the game. It doesn't suddenly just detach itself from its real life sources of inspiration just because you personally don't agree with it. You can disagree with it, sure, but to cheapen the amount of time and effort the writers spent researching the subject and crafting a decade-long story to express the ideas they wanted to express by pretending it doesn't have any application to real life, is frankly disrespectful.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

See, I'm not sure how you don't seem to see that what you said there literally goes against the entire theme of the story, which is, yes, meant to parallel real life philosophical concepts.

If you have a problem with the philosophy that inspired the writing of the game... then you have a problem with the philosophy that inspired the writing of the game. It doesn't suddenly just detach itself from its real life sources of inspiration just because you personally don't agree with it. You can disagree with it, sure, but to cheapen the amount of time and effort the writers spent researching the subject and crafting a decade-long story to express the ideas they wanted to express by pretending it doesn't have any application to real life, is frankly disrespectful.

You understood nothing.

Also your interpretation of the philosophy doesn't mean that's what they were going with. There are several interpretations people have found. You seem to be arrogant to think you know what they were going for without knowing their mind. I'm done with you and adding you to the many people on here I have ignored.