Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Elysidelphi]

You are completely missing the point of what I am even saying: sociopaths and psychopaths (there is a difference between the two) are not capable of the emotional depth and spectrum that Emet-Selch displays. From feelings of love to feelings of remorse to developing bonds with individuals in their communities, they have a limited capacity for all of the above. Psychopaths hardly ever develop bonds with anyone. Sociopaths are incapable of empathy or remorse. Your label for Emet-Selch is incorrect, and it doesn’t take being a psychiatrist to see this. He is far more applicably described as a ruthless villain versus a sociopathic or a psychopathic one.

Is Zenos wasted potential? Absolutely. But that is not an excuse to bring him back a third time only to do nothing with his character—and at this point, there isn’t much that can be done short of giving him some kind of redemption arc that would, as I said above, come across as a poorly written fan fiction because the character himself is poorly written and has no redeeming qualities. If Natsuko thought she could have done something with it, I’m sure she would have at least tried. But he, once again, took a backseat until the very end. Where he wasn’t even needed, in all honestly. Just shoehorned in because they had to do something with him.

He had far more impact dying at the end of Stormblood than his antics in Shadowbringers and Endwalker combined. It’s time to move on to other villains now. Not to just keep rehashing the same ones over and over again. That gets repetitive and boring. At that point, you’re in sunk cost territory.

Yes, I am well aware that there are differences between psychopaths and sociopaths. But I don't think I'm missing your point. I did not label Emet-Selch neither a sociopath nor a psychopath. I said that he could have come across like that, especially in the patches leading up to Shadowbringers. He could have come across like that to people who don't stop to analyse much or put pieces together. But in Shadowbringers, he was developed fully, given a full story, that was pretty in your face, you didn't have to put pieces together, the story was very clear, very in your face for even those people who don't like to analyse characters and details. And thus, Emet-Selch was "saved" from remaining/coming across as just yet another sociopath/psychopath.

Again, when I say I want Ishikawa to bring him back, I do not want him back just so he could do nothing, yet again.

As for a redemption arc, Zenos could be given redeeming qualities, he could develop more. Personality is not static. It changes. Thus, Zenos could learn and grow and change and earn his redemption. And if written by Ishikawa it wouldn't feel at all like fan fiction. Maybe she did want to do more with Zenos, but because she had to focus on wrapping up a huge story with many other characters, she didn't have the time or resources to also develop Zenos. Unless Ishikawa herself comes out and tells us that Zenos is dead and done and never coming back and she doesn't want to write him anymore, all we can do here is speculate. And in my case, hope.

Zenos's death in Stormblood was shocking, but didn't feel fulfilling, even back then I was left with way too many questions and even back then I wanted to know a lot more about Zenos. If back in Stormblood he had been given the "Emet-Selch treatment" and given a proper backstory and development followed by his suicide, then absolutely I would have been happy with that. Probably heartbroken, but happy.

As long as I have questions about a character, that character never gets old, repetitive or boring for me.

[Elysidelphi]

I get the feeling we haven't seen the last of him, and while some people want him to just go away, it kind of feels like his story arc hasn't quite been wrapped up.

To me it seems more like he's on the verge of a change, and that battle at the edge of the universe was just a catalyst for any potential character development

I'm honestly not sure how they'll bring him back and not make it "meh" but if there's one thing that the past 2 expansions have taught me, it's that you can't rush a good story, and if they plan on bringing him back I'm sure they'll lay the framework beforehand so that it doesn't feel contrived

Well said! I hope you are right!

And yeah, I got the same feelings about Zenos in Endwalker. He kept appearing in different scenes, and it felt weird given that this was written by the writer of Shadowbringers. It gave me the impression that his scenes, while short and weird, may be little clues, little puzzle pieces, leading up to something bigger. It felt like Ishikawa was trying to go somewhere with him. Even his new name in Latin, "viator", means traveller, wayfarer, peregrinator, etc. I get that it was given in the context of Zenos being banished from Garlemald but, there are other words in Latin that only mean "banished" or "exiled". FFXIV doesn't use words lightly and words themselves can and often times are clues. So maybe Zenos is going on his own journey, that will give him in-depth development and redemption.

And yeah, good points you've made. You can't rush a good story, and you need to lay the framework beforehand. That reminds me of something else. Apparently Yoshi-P really loves mystery/detective novels/books where you are fed lots of details and clues that lead to something bigger down the road; and he said he tried to do the same in FFXIV, create mysteries by sprinkling details and clues along the way. So I hope this was done with Zenos as well.

[HyoMinPark]

Again, when I say I want Ishikawa to bring him back, I do not want him back just so he could do nothing, yet again. As for a redemption arc, Zenos could be given redeeming qualities, he could develop more. Personality is not static. It changes. Thus, Zenos could learn and grow and change and earn his redemption. And if written by Ishikawa it wouldn't feel at all like fan fiction. Maybe she did want to do more with Zenos, but because she had to focus on wrapping up a huge story with many other characters, she didn't have the time or resources to also develop Zenos. Unless Ishikawa herself comes out and tells us that Zenos is dead and done and never coming back and she doesn't want to write him anymore, all we can do here is speculate. And in my case, hope.

If you are forced into giving a character redeeming qualities four years after they are introduced to a franchise, then you are completely redesigning that character on a fundamental level—which means that it was a poor character from the beginning, and haven’t you spent this entire thread arguing otherwise? If you are going to fundamentally change a character, then you should probably just create a new character that already has these qualities innate to them. You are asking for, essentially, a character retcon for Zenos. At which point, well, would you even be able to call this new character “Zenos” to begin with?

Everything you post in this thread is falling into the sunk cost fallacy. Just because he was wasted potential doesn’t mean that we need to keep bringing him back and shoving him down people’s throats for the sake of not making him a waste. If you want to explore his backstory, you can 100% do that without bringing him back to life for a third time. The implications for Endwalker—and the reason why they ended it in 6.0 versus 6.3—is because they were ready to close this chapter and move on to newer ones. New worlds; new villains. We really don’t need to keep rehashing the same ones.

In my opinion, bringing Zenos back for a third time would be akin to making Final Fantasy: Lightning Zenos Returns.

[Elysidelphi]

If you are forced into giving a character redeeming qualities four years after they are introduced to a franchise, then you are completely redesigning that character on a fundamental level—which means that it was a poor character from the beginning, and haven’t you spent this entire thread arguing otherwise? If you are going to fundamentally change a character, then you should probably just create a new character that already has these qualities innate to them. You are asking for, essentially, a character retcon for Zenos. At which point, well, would you even be able to call this new character “Zenos” to begin with?

Everything you post in this thread is falling into the sunk cost fallacy. Just because he was wasted potential doesn’t mean that we need to keep bringing him back and shoving him down people’s throats for the sake of not making him a waste. If you want to explore his backstory, you can 100% do that without bringing him back to life for a third time. The implications for Endwalker—and the reason why they ended it in 6.0 versus 6.3—is because they were ready to close this chapter and move on to newer ones. New worlds; new villains. We really don’t need to keep rehashing the same ones.

I have spent this entire thread saying over and over again that Zenos was never given proper development. If that makes him a poor character in others' eyes, so be it. In my eyes, he was always wasted potential.
I definitely don't want Zenos to be redesigned from the ground up, he already has personality traits that I'd want them to keep for him, as well as abilities, physical traits, etc.

I am not asking for a character retcon for Zenos. I am asking for him to be developed properly, either in a redemption arc (because personality is fluid, and people can learn and change) or be kept as a villain or made into an anti-hero, but again, with actual stuff to do, with an in-depth story.

For me personally it wouldn't be fulfilling to explore his backstory with him being dead, given everything done with him so far, which wasn't much. So no, I want to explore his backstory with him alive.
Endwalker closed the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc. Everything else was left open to some degree or another.

Besides Zenos, there are many other characters without proper developments such as Unukalhai, Cylva, Lahabrea, Elidibus, the other Sundered Ascians, etc. Just because they are old characters they shouldn't be ignored or forgotten about.

You can move on to new world, have new villains and still explore older characters. It isn't mutually exclusive.

Anyway, I did not make this thread to argue about Zenos or to convince people of anything in particular. I am actually hoping that someone at Square Enix actually sees this thread, that hopefully Ishikawa is made aware of the fact that there are people who still want more of Zenos and who genuinely believe he has potential and deserves more. If my thread can help with that, I'd be very happy.

I get that Zenos is a very divisive character and there are many who hate him and want him gone for good. I'm not trying to change their minds. They can keep both their hatred and their desires to have him gone for good. I'll keep my own hopes as well.

[NyannCat]

You should not take statements out of context. I was clearly discussing why something like a redemption arc would not work for Zenos and how unsympathetic of a character he is with that statement—but you chose to omit all of that. That said, both have qualities that Zenos does not: character development and depth. In addition to having enough redeeming qualities that a redemption arc wouldn’t feel like some poorly written fan fiction.

It’s just staggering how blindly defensive some people get of this character. I can’t really understand it, because he’s had 2 expansions and done less in them than some characters have done in a handful of cutscenes. There’s too much blind defense for him that kind of adds to the entire meme. He truly is the Draco in Leather Pants trope the more I read this thread. Stop painting him as a victim when he is very clearly not a victim. He’s been completely complacent in his blatant disregard for anyone and everyone but himself.

I'm sorry I took that out of context, but I've seen this argument quite enough: "Oh you can't redeem him because he wanted to destroy the world and kill people, and he's evil and bad".

He does not have qualities that could redeem him and make him into a Scion, for example, for that I agree, but as I have said before: he has all the personality and background to be an anti-hero. All of it.
I am not painting him as a victim, I am saying he was once a villain and he can become an anti-hero. I'm saying he has all the potential to be a great character, not a good guy, but still a great character.

If people are blindly defensive, you're being blindly dismissive of all that the character can still bring to the table. You're saying that the character should be trashed just because he didn't do anything big and meaninful in two expansions, while Ascians were the absolute same for ARR, HW and SB. Ascians were plain boring, just going "oh lord zodiark hohoho please come back lord zodiark, yes, let's summon primals to bring back lord zodiark". And then came shadowbringers and we were struck by "oh... maybe there's more to ascians than just making beast tribes summon primals".

You're saying that they have "qualities that zenos does not", but you're saying it NOW, after they had their redemption arcs, lol. I don't think you'd say Ascians had development and depth back in stormblood or even half of shadowbringers. We didn't know Emet-Selch had solid, loving reasons until we reached Amaurot, the last zone of shadowbringers.
I don't think you're being fair at your judgement when you say one character is more valid than the other just because they already had their development arcs. He's still in the middle, if not the start of his. Again, he will never be seen as an actual good guy like Ancients were, but that's not his role either.

I'm not being defensive, I just think you have the wrong perspective on the thing.

[CoffeeBuns]

I didn't read OP or 90% of this thread, but here's the bottom line: Zenos needs to just be done as he hasn't been relevant since Stormblood. The final fight with him was pretty good, though.

Zenos was the weakest part of this expansion by far; even his tenuous relevance wasn't utilized much at all. That being said, it's over now, and we can move on.

Forge ahead!

This. I want him to stay dead.

[Elysidelphi]

I'm sorry I took that out of context, but I've seen this argument quite enough: "Oh you can't redeem him because he wanted to destroy the world and kill people, and he's evil and bad".

He does not have qualities that could redeem him and make him into a Scion, for example, for that I agree, but as I have said before: he has all the personality and background to be an anti-hero. All of it.
I am not painting him as a victim, I am saying he was once a villain and he can become an anti-hero. I'm saying he has all the potential to be a great character, not a good guy, but still a great character.

If people are blindly defensive, you're being blindly dismissive of all that the character can still bring to the table. You're saying that the character should be trashed just because he didn't do anything big and meaninful in two expansions, while Ascians were the absolute same for ARR, HW and SB. Ascians were plain boring, just going "oh lord zodiark hohoho please come back lord zodiark, yes, let's summon primals to bring back lord zodiark". And then came shadowbringers and we were struck by "oh... maybe there's more to ascians than just making beast tribes summon primals".

You're saying that they have "qualities that zenos does not", but you're saying it NOW, after they had their redemption arcs, lol. I don't think you'd say Ascians had development and depth back in stormblood or even half of shadowbringers. We didn't know Emet-Selch had solid, loving reasons until we reached Amaurot, the last zone of shadowbringers.
I don't think you're being fair at your judgement when you say one character is more valid than the other just because they already had their development arcs. He's still in the middle, if not the start of his. Again, he will never be seen as an actual good guy like Ancients were, but that's not his role either.

I'm not being defensive, I just think you have the wrong perspective on the thing.

Yeah, well put.

I remember back in ARR, HW and SB whenever I was coming across Ascians, I never once imagined that they would have the depth given to them in Shadowbringers. I was thinking that there must be more to them, but I never expected all the revelations from Shadowbringers, which is why I adored that expansion and what it did with the Ascian arc.

And you make an excellent point: the Ascians were built up in ARR, HW and SB, just to be explained and given depth in Shadowbringers. It took them years to give the Ascians the depth they have now. So I hope to god they do something similar with Zenos as well.

FFXIV is a huge game with a complex story and with many characters, so I hope that Ishikawa just had to focus on wrapping up the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc which is why she couldn't touch the other characters and focus properly on them. And maybe the reason Zenos wasn't given a proper development back in Stormblood is because he was always meant to be a long-term character and appear in several expansions, slowly building up his story, with clues and hints along the way just like Yoshi-P likes it.

[MagiusNecros]

Exactly. Well said. He definitely has feelings. And yeah, it's very likely that he's extremely depressed. And numbing one's feelings and hiding them are defence mechanisms used very frequently by very many people so I could see him do that as well.

Thank you for caring about Zenos and wanting more of him! I feel less alone in this now.

Zenos is a interesting character with the Blood Knight archetype. I feel there is just a loud vocal minority that hates him.

That said Emet Selch is much more popular across the board. One does not simply make the top 10 FF characters in JP polls.

[NyannCat]

And maybe the reason Zenos wasn't given a proper development back in Stormblood is because he was always meant to be a long-term character and appear in several expansions, slowly building up his story, with clues and hints along the way just like Yoshi-P likes it.

I think Zenos didn't get any development in Stormblood because it was not the goal of Stormblood. Stormblood was NOT about Zenos, even though he was the final boss. Stormblood was about all the wars and the turning point of the Eorzean Alliance against Garlemald. It was about retaking Ala Mhigo and Doma, and striking back.

Zenos in stormblood was just like Thordan in Heavensward. Thordan was the final boss, but the expansion was much more about Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg and the dragons than it was about Thordan, even though Thordan had a role in it as antagonist, technically.

[Elysidelphi]

I think Zenos didn't get any development in Stormblood because it was not the goal of Stormblood. Stormblood was NOT about Zenos, even though he was the final boss. Stormblood was about all the wars and the turning point of the Eorzean Alliance against Garlemald. It was about retaking Ala Mhigo and Doma, and striking back.

Zenos in stormblood was just like Thordan in Heavensward. Thordan was the final boss, but the expansion was much more about Hraesvelgr, Nidhogg and the dragons than it was about Thordan, even though Thordan had a role in it as antagonist, technically.

True. But then, why do you think that Zenos was not left dead at the end of Stormblood, the way Thordan was left dead once defeated?