Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Elysidelphi]

Ishikawa had two full expansion to work with and still couldn't salvage his character. Zenos is relegated so far into the background in Endwalker you could literally delete every scene he was in and change virtually nothing. He does nothing; accomplishing nothing and is written off after pulling a Deus ex Machina because nobody knew what to do with him. Reducing Emet-Selch to simply being a sociopath in Shadowbringers only highlights your bias. His entire development happened throughout that expansion and only continued in Endwalker. Furthermore, most people who praise Emet-Selch still denounce his horrible actions for precisely what they were. They like him as a villain and acknowledge he is a deeply flawed character. They aren't making excuses for his attempt at mass genocide due to a poor childhood.

Yes, I do wonder why Ishikawa didn't do much with Zenos, but I choose to hope and I still want her to bring him back and do a lot more with him. He is not even the only character that wasn't developed much. I can name a few of them, such as Lahabrea, Elidibus, Varis even, Emperor Xande, the remaining Ascians, Unukalhai, Cylva, etc. I have many questions about all these characters and about other characters as well and I'd like to see them developed as well.

I did not reduce Emet-Selch to a sociopath, I said he could have come across like that but thankfully Ishikawa developed him and gave him depth, gave him a backstory and reasons.

I am not making excuses for Zenos because of his childhood, but I am saying that his childhood and life in general did contribute to his personality. Again, monsters are made, not born. No, it doesn't excuse him, but it should make him more understandable.

Emet-Selch is one of my favourite characters if not my number one favourite character in FFXIV and I loved what Ishikawa did with him. I just wish she did something similar with Zenos, as in: give him depth, give him a proper backstory. No, it doesn't need to be a grand reason or scheme like Emet-Selch's desire to restore his world and people, but it should be a proper story, with in-depth development. That's what I want.

[nighttimebunny]

I'm not sure if his story is over. I think saying it is or it isn't inevitably has personal bias towards the character influencing your opinion. But: he is for all intents and purposes immortal/an Ascian. He has the Echo, survived suicide, can see colors of souls, swap bodies, etc. He consumed the Mothercrystal. A lot of opportunities here to have him come back if that's their plan. I think his character has a LOT of potential and they are setting up something great.

Yes, I like his character a lot, and don't understand why people hate him so much. Seems like people just jump on the bandwagon. I like ""good"" villains like Emet-Selch too but, I love Zenos, especially after his character development in EW that I can see possibly get expanded.

If he doesn't, and he's gone forever, so be it. It's up to the writers, not us. But I have a feeling they want to give him some kind of redemption or further development.

[Elysidelphi]

You’re ignoring Emet’s motives here. Why did he create all this destruction? To save his people. To save the people he loved. And there lies the key word here: love. Something a sociopath is not capable of feeling or even understanding.

It wasn’t directed towards us—we got the brunt of his negative, murderous emotions. But the fact remains that he felt very strong emotions towards what became of his people and his world. He shows more than enough emotion just in a handful of interactions in Shadowbringers (him speaking with you outside The Ladder in Kholusia, and his monologue prior to unlocking Amarout are two that come to mind). If he were a sociopath, then he wouldn’t be able to display as much emotion as he did in just those two scenes.

That said, he is still a villain and deserves to be vilified for everything he did to us and to our worlds. The difference between him and Zenos is that he actually has redeeming qualities. And we see them in Elpis. He also went quietly when it was his time—his resurrections have primarily been backstories and not to shove him down the player character’s throat in a forced attempt at making a foil/mirror to us. Emet is actually dead; versus Zenos who cheats death in order to do…absolutely nothing 95% of the time he’s on screen.



I’ve complained in this very thread about the Scions constantly cheating death. Their “sacrifices” in Ultima Thule were completely undermined by the fact that they weren’t actually dead. Thancred should have died after his fight with Ran’jit in 5.0—it was the perfect moment and closure for his character. And I was so disappointed that they just slapped a few bandaids on him and called it a day. Y’shtola is “killed” every expansion and made all better again a few quests later. It’s to the point that, should she actually die sometime in the future, I can no longer feel any emotional impact from it. That’s said, they did kill off two Scions: Papalymo—he’s honestly barely mentioned except in an offhand comment by Lyse; and Minfilia. And honestly, the ending they gave Minfilia was perfect. And it redeemed her character a lot for me.

And death should mean something in this game. So why further undermine it by bringing Zenos back for a THIRD time? That’s only exacerbating the issue. Especially since it seems unlikely that the writers will actually do anything with him. He’s been around for 2 expansions, and has barely done anything other than sit on his butt in every other scene sleeping or being bored.

You are wrong. Sociopaths can feel love. Even psychopaths can feel love. Sociopathy and psychopathy function on a scale/spectrum, and some psychopaths and some sociopaths do feel love. Do feel attachment. Do get attached. Do feel affection. There were actual interviews with people diagnosed with sociopathy or psychopathy and a number of them have confirmed that they did feel love, affection and attachment towards their partners or friends or family. And they do definitely understand it, even the ones who do not feel it, they can understand it as it is perceived/felt/described by others and they even feel regretful that they themselves cannot feel it. But again, sociopathy and psychopathy function on a spectrum. Not all psychopaths and not all sociopaths feel and act and think the same, some cannot feel love, but some can feel love. It is wrong to generalise. In the case of Zenos, we do not even know for certain whether he is a sociopath or a psychopath and even if he were, we do not know where on that scale he would fall. And we do not know these things because he is not properly developed.

And when I call for Zenos to be brought back, I don't want him to come back and again do nothing. I never wanted that for him, to do nothing, have no development. I always wanted him to have development, especially now when the main story is done and other characters could be developed more/properly.

I don't want Zenos to be brought back to undermine death. That is not the reason why I want him back. I want him back because I have many unanswered questions that I want answered with him alive and involved in the story and because I want him to be developed properly. If he had been developed properly back in Stormblood or Shadowbringers or even now in Endwalker, and then killed in a meaningful way, I would have been okay with that and I wouldn't have wanted him back. I just hate seeing wasted potential, having way too many unanswered questions, and so on. If my concerns had been addressed from the start, years ago, I would not be writing any of this now and I would have been perfectly happy and excited to move on to new villains.

[nighttimebunny]

I feel the same. I desperately want to know more about his past and his feelings. I do think he has some. He probably just numbs himself and hides them. And I think the "I..." at the end was just a cliffhanger...I want to know what he was going to say. ;-;
I think he's just extremely depressed. I've been there. Maybe that's why I kind of relate to him.

[Elysidelphi]

Great reply. Really.
I would only add that I feel like he has the kind of personality of someone who, in a matter, "has everything". He's way too powerful, unstoppable. That causes someone to become apathetic (also mistaken for 'boredom' by other people). Kinda like people who become millionaires and then find out they have no meaning in life, because they spent their whole lives thinking that was it. And then I connect it to what you said: he finds someone who not only is stronger than him, but doesn't even acknowledge him, doesn't care about him at all.

I think Zenos is a character who's all about potential. There's so much to him to be developed, he has so many roles he could fulfill. But people aren't patient enough and they want him gone because they can't wait. They forget that it took a long ass time to develop Ascians to the point where they could be interesting.
I remember back in stormblood, I was like "Oh no, not Ascians again. Don't they get tired of this same trope everytime?"
And now I really want to know more about the Ascians, Ancients, Amaurot, everything. The same for Allagans: I feel like I'm tired of everything bad that happens being caused by some Allagan thing, but I feel like I may yet be surprised if they decide to do an expansion where we learn more about Allagans. Maybe when we visit Meracydia we'll have some more insight.

Yeah, well said. Zenos does have a lot of potential and deserves a proper story, like Emet-Selch had a proper story. Ideally, I do want Zenos redeemed because I do believed that everybody can be redeemed if the work needed for that is done of course. But even if he just stays a villain or an anti-hero, I would still be happy. As long as he is developed and given an in-depth story.
Zenos is such a divisive character. You're right that people aren't patient enough and just want him gone just because until now he wasn't properly developed.

Thank you for being different yourself and seeing the potential in Zenos.

[HyoMinPark]

You are wrong. Sociopaths can feel love. Even psychopaths can feel love. Sociopathy and psychopathy function on a scale/spectrum, and some psychopaths and some sociopaths do feel love. Do feel attachment. Do get attached. Do feel affection. There were actual interviews with people diagnosed with sociopathy or psychopathy and a number of them have confirmed that they did feel love, affection and attachment towards their partners or friends or family. And they do definitely understand it, even the ones who do not feel it, they can understand it as it is perceived/felt/described by others and they even feel regretful that they themselves cannot feel it. But again, sociopathy and psychopathy function on a spectrum. Not all psychopaths and not all sociopaths feel and act and think the same, some cannot feel love, but some can feel love. It is wrong to generalise. In the case of Zenos, we do not even know for certain whether he is a sociopath or a psychopath and even if he were, we do not know where on that scale he would fall. And we do not know these things because he is not properly developed.

And when I call for Zenos to be brought back, I don't want him to come back and again do nothing. I never wanted that for him, to do nothing, have no development. I always wanted him to have development, especially now when the main story is done and other characters could be developed more/properly.

I don't want Zenos to be brought back to undermine death. That is not the reason why I want him back. I want him back because I have many unanswered questions that I want answered with him alive and involved in the story and because I want him to be developed properly. If he had been developed properly back in Stormblood or Shadowbringers or even now in Endwalker, and then killed in a meaningful way, I would have been okay with that and I wouldn't have wanted him back. I just hate seeing wasted potential, having way too many unanswered questions, and so on. If my concerns had been addressed from the start, years ago, I would not be writing any of this now and I would have been perfectly happy and excited to move on to new villains.

You are completely missing the point of what I am even saying: sociopaths and psychopaths (there is a difference between the two) are not capable of the emotional depth and spectrum that Emet-Selch displays. From feelings of love to feelings of remorse to developing bonds with individuals in their communities, they have a limited capacity for all of the above. Psychopaths hardly ever develop bonds with anyone. Sociopaths are incapable of empathy or remorse. Your label for Emet-Selch is incorrect, and it doesn’t take being a psychiatrist to see this. He is far more applicably described as a ruthless villain versus a sociopathic or a psychopathic one.

Is Zenos wasted potential? Absolutely. But that is not an excuse to bring him back a third time only to do nothing with his character—and at this point, there isn’t much that can be done short of giving him some kind of redemption arc that would, as I said above, come across as a poorly written fan fiction because the character himself is poorly written and has no redeeming qualities. If Natsuko thought she could have done something with it, I’m sure she would have at least tried. But he, once again, took a backseat until the very end. Where he wasn’t even needed, in all honestly. Just shoehorned in because they had to do something with him.

He had far more impact dying at the end of Stormblood than his antics in Shadowbringers and Endwalker combined. It’s time to move on to other villains now. Not to just keep rehashing the same ones over and over again. That gets repetitive and boring. At that point, you’re in sunk cost territory.

[KitKatnip]

I'm not convinced Zenos is dead. We killed him once and he didn't stay dead. I think he's going to come back again. Although how he's going to get back from the far end of the Universe, I have no idea.

[Elysidelphi]

I'm not sure if his story is over. I think saying it is or it isn't inevitably has personal bias towards the character influencing your opinion. But: he is for all intents and purposes immortal/an Ascian. He has the Echo, survived suicide, can see colors of souls, swap bodies, etc. He consumed the Mothercrystal. A lot of opportunities here to have him come back if that's their plan. I think his character has a LOT of potential and they are setting up something great.

Yes, I like his character a lot, and don't understand why people hate him so much. Seems like people just jump on the bandwagon. I like ""good"" villains like Emet-Selch too but, I love Zenos, especially after his character development in EW that I can see possibly get expanded.

If he doesn't, and he's gone forever, so be it. It's up to the writers, not us. But I have a feeling they want to give him some kind of redemption or further development.

Thank you for your reply and for keeping my hope alive! You made some very good points there. I hope to god that you are right and they are setting up something great for him, especially if it's some sort of redemption. If done well, that would send such a powerful message. I really don't want to see this opportunity wasted.

[Elysidelphi]

I feel the same. I desperately want to know more about his past and his feelings. I do think he has some. He probably just numbs himself and hides them. And I think the "I..." at the end was just a cliffhanger...I want to know what he was going to say. ;-;
I think he's just extremely depressed. I've been there. Maybe that's why I kind of relate to him.

Exactly. Well said. He definitely has feelings. And yeah, it's very likely that he's extremely depressed. And numbing one's feelings and hiding them are defence mechanisms used very frequently by very many people so I could see him do that as well.

Thank you for caring about Zenos and wanting more of him! I feel less alone in this now.

[Dogempire]

I get the feeling we haven't seen the last of him, and while some people want him to just go away, it kind of feels like his story arc hasn't quite been wrapped up.

To me it seems more like he's on the verge of a change, and that battle at the edge of the universe was just a catalyst for any potential character development

I'm honestly not sure how they'll bring him back and not make it "meh" but if there's one thing that the past 2 expansions have taught me, it's that you can't rush a good story, and if they plan on bringing him back I'm sure they'll lay the framework beforehand so that it doesn't feel contrived