Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Elysidelphi]

A large number of players are unhappy about anyone - particularly the Scions - having plot armour. Hyomin talked about the fake deaths in the final zone of EW in this very thread; there are number of other threads on the subject of 'who needs to die' elsewhere. I disagree that it's only the bad guys that players don't want back. You only need to read threads about Elpis to know how pleased most were to get to spend more time with Emet-Selch.

Personally I very much hope the latter shows up again - he is just such an entertaining character even when he's being a sarcastic dick - but I can't think of anything useful or interesting to be derived from another Zenos resurrection. He's served his purpose thematically, we've moved on now, let him rest

I am unhappy about the Scions having plot armour as well. As much as I love them, I don't think they deserve plot armour, especially in a scenario such as the one presented by Endwalker: The Final Days.
I am not someone who says that no character should ever die, but I am someone who believes that important characters, if they have to die, should have meaningful deaths and be properly developed before dying.

I absolutely adore Emet-Selch and I too would adore to see him again and spend more time with him in future patches and expansions. But I feel the same about Zenos, if even more so, for the reasons I've already listed previously. When Emet-Selch was first introduced in the patches between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, he came across as yet another crazy, deranged, dangerous Ascian. But in Shadowbringers his character was given a backstory and proper development, which continued in future patches and even now in Endwalker. My hope is that the same happens for Zenos, that he will come back and be properly developed, especially now that the main arc story of Hydaelyn and Zodiark is done. My hope is that now there will be more time and resources to focus on previously neglected characters such as Zenos and develop them beautifully. Ishikawa has shown time and time again that she can turn a character/plot around and make it interesting and meaningful. For example, take Emet-Selch. He himself was more or less a sociopath/psychopath in Shadowbringers since he actively participated in 7 Rejoinings which killed numerous people on both the Source and each of the Shards that had been absorbed. He built empires and let them collapse for the sole purpose of chaos. He killed and made countless people suffer over thousands and thousands of years. If anything, Emet-Selch's kill count is way, way higher than Zenos's kill count. Yet, Emet-Selch is now a beloved character because Ishikawa managed to write him thus, she gave him proper development. I believe that if she wanted and if she were allowed, given the time and resources to do it, she could also turn Zenos around.

"Where there's a will, there's a way. After all, miracles happen every day."

[Tasoli]

Felt like he was some stalker Ex-Boyfriend who would just keep showing up randomly. . . I'm like . . ok why are you standing here? We broke up! It's over Zenos go away no one wants to fight you! *giggle*

[Garruss]

Please leave Zenos where he is, dead and gone, and write a much better villain than him.

[ForteNightshade]

Ishikawa has shown time and time again that she can turn a character/plot around and make it interesting and meaningful.

Ishikawa had two full expansion to work with and still couldn't salvage his character. Zenos is relegated so far into the background in Endwalker you could literally delete every scene he was in and change virtually nothing. He does nothing; accomplishing nothing and is written off after pulling a Deus ex Machina because nobody knew what to do with him. Reducing Emet-Selch to simply being a sociopath in Shadowbringers only highlights your bias. His entire development happened throughout that expansion and only continued in Endwalker. Furthermore, most people who praise Emet-Selch still denounce his horrible actions for precisely what they were. They like him as a villain and acknowledge he is a deeply flawed character. They aren't making excuses for his attempt at mass genocide due to a poor childhood.

[HyoMinPark]

For example, take Emet-Selch. He himself was more or less a sociopath/psychopath in Shadowbringers since he actively participated in 7 Rejoinings which killed numerous people on both the Source and each of the Shards that had been absorbed. He built empires and let them collapse for the sole purpose of chaos. He killed and made countless people suffer over thousands and thousands of years. If anything, Emet-Selch's kill count is way, way higher than Zenos's kill count. Yet, Emet-Selch is now a beloved character because Ishikawa managed to write him thus, she gave him proper development. I believe that if she wanted and if she were allowed, given the time and resources to do it, she could also turn Zenos around.

"Where there's a will, there's a way. After all, miracles happen every day."

You’re ignoring Emet’s motives here. Why did he create all this destruction? To save his people. To save the people he loved. And there lies the key word here: love. Something a sociopath is not capable of feeling or even understanding.

It wasn’t directed towards us—we got the brunt of his negative, murderous emotions. But the fact remains that he felt very strong emotions towards what became of his people and his world. He shows more than enough emotion just in a handful of interactions in Shadowbringers (him speaking with you outside The Ladder in Kholusia, and his monologue prior to unlocking Amarout are two that come to mind). If he were a sociopath, then he wouldn’t be able to display as much emotion as he did in just those two scenes.

That said, he is still a villain and deserves to be vilified for everything he did to us and to our worlds. The difference between him and Zenos is that he actually has redeeming qualities. And we see them in Elpis. He also went quietly when it was his time—his resurrections have primarily been backstories and not to shove him down the player character’s throat in a forced attempt at making a foil/mirror to us. Emet is actually dead; versus Zenos who cheats death in order to do…absolutely nothing 95% of the time he’s on screen.

What's the actual problem with others wanting Zenos back? People want more of him, a lot of answers left unanswered.
Some are fine with Scions STILL being alive after everything. They just get get-out-of-jail-free card every single time there's danger to their lives. Isn't this bad writing too + simple fanservice? Zenos has his own fans too.
The difference is that They are the bad guys and did bad things so they don't deserve anything, but it's fine when it's WoL and Scions.

As long as death would mean something in this game, I would probably look at this differently. But it means nothing, people come from the dead all the time. Yet only one character gets all the hate.
We are not the ones deciding who lives and who goes in this game of course, so I wonder what lies ahead.

I’ve complained in this very thread about the Scions constantly cheating death. Their “sacrifices” in Ultima Thule were completely undermined by the fact that they weren’t actually dead. Thancred should have died after his fight with Ran’jit in 5.0—it was the perfect moment and closure for his character. And I was so disappointed that they just slapped a few bandaids on him and called it a day. Y’shtola is “killed” every expansion and made all better again a few quests later. It’s to the point that, should she actually die sometime in the future, I can no longer feel any emotional impact from it. That’s said, they did kill off two Scions: Papalymo—he’s honestly barely mentioned except in an offhand comment by Lyse; and Minfilia. And honestly, the ending they gave Minfilia was perfect. And it redeemed her character a lot for me.

And death should mean something in this game. So why further undermine it by bringing Zenos back for a THIRD time? That’s only exacerbating the issue. Especially since it seems unlikely that the writers will actually do anything with him. He’s been around for 2 expansions, and has barely done anything other than sit on his butt in every other scene sleeping or being bored.

[NyannCat]

I agree with you so much! So happy to see that there are people who have similar thoughts and feelings to me in regards to Zenos. Thank you for not giving up entirely on Zenos, seriously, thank you!

I definitely want Zenos back and with in-depth development. There are quite a few questions related to him that are left unanswered and I am super interested in finding out those answers.
Some of the questions I have about Zenos are:
(...)
Oh, and personally I became invested in Zenos since Stormblood. His obsessive hunt of the WoL stood out to me since the very start, but what got me really invested in him was his suicide scene back in Stormblood. I could talk forever about that scene. But that one scene got me hooked, I remember being happy when I found out that he's actually alive and the mystery around him only got me more and more invested. Plus, of course, the extra stories about him/his childhood and all the subtle implications about his life and personality.

I got kinda invested in Stormblood as well. When I told him I was his friend, I took that to my heart. In my headcanon, my WOL always considered him as a friend, like they bonded over the whole thing.
But then when he came back to life I thought it was kinda weird and kind of lacking reason. Like, it wasn't fun just seeing him being the godlike unkillable strong NPC that just kills everyone with a bored face. That being said, when he comes back in Endwalker and starts to question what is it that he's looking for in the WOL, that's when I got hooked. That was the depth I had always been waiting for Zenos to have. That's all he needed: depth and development.
Seeing his scene at the end of EW turned my dimly lit candle of interest for Zenos into a bonfire. He was so excited, and he was like "WHY IS SHE STILL STANDING? SURE IT IS NO MATCH FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU", I was finally 200% hooked. That was such a cool scene. He's one of my favorite characters now and I really want him to be developed further.

[StriderShinryu]

Ishikawa had two full expansion to work with and still couldn't salvage his character. Zenos is relegated so far into the background in Endwalker you could literally delete every scene he was in and change virtually nothing. He does nothing; accomplishing nothing and is written off after pulling a Deus ex Machina because nobody knew what to do with him. Reducing Emet-Selch to simply being a sociopath in Shadowbringers only highlights your bias. His entire development happened throughout that expansion and only continued in Endwalker. Furthermore, most people who praise Emet-Selch still denounce his horrible actions for precisely what they were. They like him as a villain and acknowledge he is a deeply flawed character. They aren't making excuses for his attempt at mass genocide due to a poor childhood.

It really felt to me like Zenos was basically the pet character of someone on the development or writing team and Ishikawa was essentially forced to keep writing him into things. She's done a lot with every other character, even bit characters, and was able to make them all feel important and entertaining. It's not like she couldn't have done anything better with Zenos if she wanted to, but it just feels like she didn't want to.

[NyannCat]

You can tell the kind of lives people lead that they would call Zenos 1-dimensional or cardboard.
Being raised by yourself, mother dies and father completely neglects you, while at the same time you are trained to be a tool of an imperial war machine. Every moment completely empty because you have never learned to or have understood what being happy was. Then finally finding that one single thing that makes you feel alive and human again.
Zenos is a story of someone who had a completely hollow and empty existence. Discovering meaning in life. Having to understand others eventually in their own quest to have meaning. It isnt really a story of redemption or combatsexual but a story of a hollow person trying to fill that void. He even goes so far as to come rescue you just to get you to acknowledge him. Deem him worthy of your attention. Which is all he wants. What he never had his entire life. The attention or someone equal or greater than him.
Most the people talking poorly about him and his story are likely people staring down from their ivory towers.

Great reply. Really.
I would only add that I feel like he has the kind of personality of someone who, in a matter, "has everything". He's way too powerful, unstoppable. That causes someone to become apathetic (also mistaken for 'boredom' by other people). Kinda like people who become millionaires and then find out they have no meaning in life, because they spent their whole lives thinking that was it. And then I connect it to what you said: he finds someone who not only is stronger than him, but doesn't even acknowledge him, doesn't care about him at all.

I think Zenos is a character who's all about potential. There's so much to him to be developed, he has so many roles he could fulfill. But people aren't patient enough and they want him gone because they can't wait. They forget that it took a long ass time to develop Ascians to the point where they could be interesting.
I remember back in stormblood, I was like "Oh no, not Ascians again. Don't they get tired of this same trope everytime?"
And now I really want to know more about the Ascians, Ancients, Amaurot, everything. The same for Allagans: I feel like I'm tired of everything bad that happens being caused by some Allagan thing, but I feel like I may yet be surprised if they decide to do an expansion where we learn more about Allagans. Maybe when we visit Meracydia we'll have some more insight.

[NyannCat]

Zenos was willing to usher in mass genocide, death, and the end of our world

Truth be told, Meteion also wanted to destroy everything and I also finished EW wanting more of her.

In fact, thinking back, Emet-Selch too.

[HyoMinPark]

Truth be told, Meteion also wanted to destroy everything and I also finished EW wanting more of her.

In fact, thinking back, Emet-Selch too.

You should not take statements out of context. I was clearly discussing why something like a redemption arc would not work for Zenos and how unsympathetic of a character he is with that statement—but you chose to omit all of that. That said, both have qualities that Zenos does not: character development and depth. In addition to having enough redeeming qualities that a redemption arc wouldn’t feel like some poorly written fan fiction.

It’s just staggering how blindly defensive some people get of this character. I can’t really understand it, because he’s had 2 expansions and done less in them than some characters have done in a handful of cutscenes. There’s too much blind defense for him that kind of adds to the entire meme. He truly is the Draco in Leather Pants trope the more I read this thread. Stop painting him as a victim when he is very clearly not a victim. He’s been completely complacent in his blatant disregard for anyone and everyone but himself.