Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[Elysidelphi]

And explanations can be given without reviving him for the third time to harass us endlessly.

You aren’t seeming to consider that, for several people I’ve read commentaries on the ending from, his entire argument of being our foil does not sit with the backstory that others have given their characters. My character does not see him as a foil or a mirror—merely an annoyance. And I wish I could have been given the choice to not fight him, and just leave him behind.

Personally, I want Zenos to come back because I want all those questions to be answered properly, not with him being dead/gone. For me personally, answers to those questions would be more impactful if he were still alive while I received them. And I also want him back because I want him to be properly developed. Either be given a redemption arc or be made into a proper anti-hero. I want a better resolution for him, I think he has potential to become more and he deserves better. I like to think that someone like Ishikawa could give him proper depth and make it make sense. I explained more in my first post on this thread why I want him back.

I do not want Zenos to be our foil, if anything, I'd want him to be our proper friend, after he goes through a proper, well-developed redemption arc. I wish I could have been given the choice to not fight him as well. I never wanted to fight him and felt no joy in that whole scene.

[ForteNightshade]

Personally, I want Zenos to come back because I want all those questions to be answered properly, not with him being dead/gone. For me personally, answers to those questions would be more impactful if he were still alive while I received them. And I also want him back because I want him to be properly developed. Either be given a redemption arc or be made into a proper anti-hero. I want a better resolution for him, I think he has potential to become more and he deserves better. I like to think that someone like Ishikawa could give him proper depth and make it make sense. I explained more in my first post on this thread why I want him back.

I do not want Zenos to be our foil, if anything, I'd want him to be our proper friend, after he goes through a proper, well-developed redemption arc. I wish I could have been given the choice to not fight him as well. I never wanted to fight him and felt no joy in that whole scene.

Of which he deserves neither. This is a character who harbored no qualms bringing wanton genocide to the entire known world, allowed his own people to be brutally murdered, tempered and oppressed all for his own selfish pursuit to fight our character. He has zero redeeming qualities nor does the story even attempt to showcase any. The whole body swap scene is essentially a not-so-subtle rape metaphor. And every scene prior practically screams "obsessed stalker." He is a vile and entirely unlikeable character... which may have worked if the writing surrounding his story wasn't extremely poor. He neither develops beyond these one-dimensional characteristics nor does he display the slightest bit of depth. His motivations are shallow—much like his character.

Redeeming him would be akin to Thanos suddenly deciding to be pals with the Avengers. Nevermind, he tried to dust the entire universe. He was just misunderstood!

[HyoMinPark]

Personally, I want Zenos to come back because I want all those questions to be answered properly, not with him being dead/gone. For me personally, answers to those questions would be more impactful if he were still alive while I received them. And I also want him back because I want him to be properly developed. Either be given a redemption arc or be made into a proper anti-hero. I want a better resolution for him, I think he has potential to become more and he deserves better. I like to think that someone like Ishikawa could give him proper depth and make it make sense. I explained more in my first post on this thread why I want him back.

I do not want Zenos to be our foil, if anything, I'd want him to be our proper friend, after he goes through a proper, well-developed redemption arc. I wish I could have been given the choice to not fight him as well. I never wanted to fight him and felt no joy in that whole scene.

Of which he deserves neither. This is a character who harbored no qualms bringing wanton genocide to the entire known world, allowed his own people to be brutally murdered, tempered and oppressed all for his own selfish pursuit to fight our character. He has zero redeeming qualities nor does the story even attempt to showcase any. The whole body swap scene is essentially a not-so-subtle rape metaphor. And every scene prior practically screams "obsessed stalker." He is a vile and entirely unlikeable character... which may have worked if the writing surrounding his story wasn't extremely poor. He neither develops beyond these one-dimensional characteristics nor does he display the slightest bit of depth. His motivations are shallow—much like his character.

Redeeming him would be akin to Thanos suddenly deciding to be pals with the Avengers. Nevermind, he tried to dust the entire universe. He was just misunderstood!

ForteNightshade basically said everything I wanted to say before I had a chance to post.

In order for a redemption arc to work, the character has to have redeeming qualities. Zenos does not have these. He was willing to usher in the Final Days and destroy the entire world for the sole purpose of making us “hungry enough” to want to fight him as we did at the end of Stormblood. Not to mention he got upset when he ran into us in Garlemald and we were focused on something far more important that giving him what he wanted. He’s a selfish individual with no redeeming qualities; and a redemption arc would be poor writing. And, frankly, an insult to Natsuko should she attempt it. She’s far better than that, as Shadowbringers showed us.

Any potential the writers were going to give him should have been given in 4.x. But they didn’t. They made him a boring and uninteresting “main antagonist” that a lot of people are fine to see gone. This send off was the best they could give him. Leave it at that.

[Senn]

He neither develops beyond these one-dimensional characteristics nor does he display the slightest bit of depth.

While you're not wrong, he did develop ever so slightly. What Alisae said to him struck a chord. A lot of the things he did was in order to get the WoL's attention, but he finally realized that wouldn't work. And in the end, Zenos even gave WoL the option to reject his challenge. So he did change a little. It may seem insignificant, but to Zenos, that was his only joy in life, and ordinarily, he would stop at nothing to attain that joy. Yet despite how much this meant to him, he would have let the WoL walk away if they wanted to.

I'm not saying he should or should not be redeemed. I'm just saying he did develop to some (small) extent.

[HyoMinPark]

While you're not wrong, he did develop ever so slightly. What Alisae said to him struck a chord. A lot of the things he did was in order to get the WoL's attention, but he finally realized that wouldn't work. And in the end, Zenos even gave WoL the option to reject his challenge. So he did change a little. It may seem insignificant, but to Zenos, that was his only joy in life, and ordinarily, he would stop at nothing to attain that joy. Yet despite how much this meant to him, he would have let the WoL walk away if they wanted to.

I'm not saying he should or should not be redeemed. I'm just saying he did develop to some (small) extent.

Except this was negated in that we can’t opt to just not fight him and leave him hanging out at the end of the universe for the rest of time immemorial. So the “choice” was an illusion and not much else. We never actually had one in the end.

[Senn]

Except this was negated in that we can’t opt to just not fight him and leave him hanging out at the end of the universe for the rest of time immemorial. So the “choice” was an illusion and not much else. We never actually had one in the end.

I mean... Narrative-wise, Zenos did give the WoL a choice. Nothing was negated. Dialogue options don't normally change anything in ffxiv so why would it this time?

[SturmChurro]

I mean... Narrative-wise, Zenos did give the WoL a choice. Nothing was negated. Dialogue options don't normally change anything in ffxiv so why would it this time?

He had to give the WoL the choice. He wanted their attention; their all. He wanted the WoL to want to fight him. It's why Alisaie's words struck that cord with him. Forcing the fight wouldn't work.

[Senn]

He had to give the WoL the choice. He wanted their attention; their all. He wanted the WoL to want to fight him. It's why Alisaie's words struck that cord with him. Forcing the fight wouldn't work.

Exactly. In the end, he learned not to be forceful about it and got what he wanted.

[HyoMinPark]

I mean... Narrative-wise, Zenos did give the WoL a choice. Nothing was negated. Dialogue options don't normally change anything in ffxiv so why would it this time?

Then the story completely negated the development you pointed out. What would be the point of the development? The point of the choice? You can’t say no—so the “development” led nowhere. Effectively undermining it.

It would been much better for the game to break away from the prior notion of choice not affecting the story. And would have probably helped what you’ve pointed out here. But the fact that it undermines it doesn’t help Zenos at all. It makes the entire thing worse, actually.

[Senn]

Then the story completely negated the development you pointed out. What would be the point of the development? The point of the choice? You can’t say no—so the “development” led nowhere. Effectively undermining it.

It would been much better for the game to break away from the prior notion of choice not affecting the story. And would have probably helped what you’ve pointed out here. But the fact that it undermines it doesn’t help Zenos at all. It makes the entire thing worse, actually.

In the end, it was the WoL who chose to stay and fight. Zenos would have let them walk away. Narratively, nothing was undermined. It was all the WoL's decision. If you think the developers should have put in an option to reject the challenge, fair enough. But that doesn't change the fact that Zenos would have let the WoL walk away, proving he did have development in some fashion.