On Extreme Role-playing Within XIV

[Caurcas]

What argument?

It's the first post my dude.

[Vyrerus]

It's the first post my dude.

I believe that response was something of a, "zinger" as in your OP didn't constitute one. Which I mean, I think it did, but some people, ya know?

[Brandedblade]

Greetings, and baiting title aside I would like to begin a discussion over fringe role-playing within the game. No, not the usual degenerate type often debated, but rather what is almost never discussed. That being topics such as role-playing a character who might be racist, xenophobic or intolerant. A Garlean loyalist who believes in the cause, or a Xaela ultra nationalist. A moral compromised character. I've found these types of role-playing within XIV to be almost nonexistent and even treated as taboo. More so than even actual unseemly roleplay of the other type. This is strange to me, as I come from other games that have a much more varied community when it comes to types of characters roleplayed. It makes XIV's scene seem stagnant and boring. Thoughts on why?

While I ultimately cannot stop another individual from RPing this, my personal experience (big emphasis because I am aware that my experiences aren't universal) tends to be that people who rp extremist characters tend to share similar views OOC. So I tend to prefer not to interact with these types myself.

[Theodric]

Meanwhile, in my personal experience, what is considered to be an 'extremist' character changes in definition by the day. Often at the whims of role-players with a perpetual chip atop their shoulders who seek to exploit the art as a means of spreading certain ideologies.

I've also seen a mysterious trend where many role-players insist that it is perfectly fine to portray their character as racist or discriminatory towards Garlean characters (even those not aligned with Garlemald as a whole) but it is considered unacceptable for Garlean characters to do as much themselves.

[SturmChurro]

Meanwhile, in my personal experience, what is considered to be an 'extremist' character changes in definition by the day. Often at the whims of role-players with a perpetual chip atop their shoulders who seek to exploit the art as a means of spreading certain ideologies.

I've also seen a mysterious trend where many role-players insist that it is perfectly fine to portray their character as racist or discriminatory towards Garlean characters (even those not aligned with Garlemald as a whole) but it is considered unacceptable for Garlean characters to do as much themselves.

I'd say this is the concept of "punching up" and "punching down" in play. It's okay to "punch up", in this case being 'racist' towards a Garlean character, due to them having been in a position of power, while they cannot do the same as that is in turn "punching down". The same thing that happens in many real life interactions.

[Theodric]

I'd say this is the concept of "punching up", and "punching down" in play. It's okay to "punch up", or be 'racist' towards a Garlean character due to them having been in a position of power, while they cannot do the same as that is in turn "punching down". The same thing that happens in many real life interactions.

Perhaps. Though in my opinion such an approach doesn't quite fit within the established story as the Garleans were simply peaceful farmers who were largely incapable of manipulating aether which put them at a major disadvantage. As such, their neighbours forced them out of fertile territory and into the frigid wastes of Northern Ilsabard where they would have died out if not for the presence of ceruleum.

It was only later that they reversed their fortunes and sought to recover their lost lands and whilst a case can be made for not expanding beyond that reclaimed territory, I'd note that Eorzea and the various other nations have all benefitted immensely from the spoils of war themselves, particularly when it comes to staking claim to territory rich in aether.

[MikkoAkure]

Perhaps. Though in my opinion such an approach doesn't quite fit within the established story as the Garleans were simply peaceful farmers who were largely incapable of manipulating aether which put them at a major disadvantage. As such, their neighbours forced them out of fertile territory and into the frigid wastes of Northern Ilsabard where they would have died out if not for the presence of ceruleum.

It was only later that they reversed their fortunes and sought to recover their lost lands and whilst a case can be made for not expanding beyond that reclaimed territory, I'd note that Eorzea and the various other nations have all benefitted immensely from the spoils of war themselves, particularly when it comes to staking claim to territory rich in aether.

I don't have any skin in this game since I don't RP, but to be fair most Eorzeans aren't going to know the backstory of the Garleans and only know them as a conquering force. The Garleans were actively flying their ships over Eorzean cities and invaded with full force 5 years ago at the end of 1.0, sent another giant invasion force which (accidentally) exploded Silvertear Falls, ruining the most pristine land in the entire region and creating Mor Dhona 15 years ago, and conquered Ala Mhigo 20 years ago. 2 whole legions have actively threatened most of the inhabitants of Eorzea over the past 5 years and 1 of them is still present on the continent in bases that they've created right next to where people live. Then most notably, it was the Garleans who were responsible for the Meteor and the 7th Calamity, which killed countless people and completely devastated the land.

No Eorzeans have any contact whatsoever with Garlean civilians and only know the soldiers invading their countries, or stories from Ala Mhigan and Doman refugees. It's going to be hard relating to a people who have done nothing but provided hardships for literally everyone and have touched the lives of every single Eorzean for the worst.

Your history is also missing a note that they weren't native to the lands they were kicked out of either. They were native to Goug until they blew up their own city and came to the continent as refugees. The official entry for Reaper seems to be at odds with the lore from the Encyclopedia and the Ivalice quests. The lorebook doesn't say anything about "peaceful farmers" it says that they "suffered defeat in their territorial claims", which implies that they were the aggressor. We don't know how peaceful they may have been, why the natives didn't let them stay, and why they were kicked out, but I hope we find out more in Endwalker. Either way, their being kicked out of lands that weren't theirs 800 years ago isn't going to change anyone's mind and make them suddenly feel bad.

I'm sure that we'll learn more about the effects the war has had on Garlean civilians and learn more of their side of the story, but it's not like we're going to be reporting it all back to everyone back home and it won't erase feelings everyday people would have in Eorzea.


That all said, I'm sure it would be interesting to RP as or with a normal Garlean character, but you're going to be facing an uphill battle and it isn't entirely realistic to expect every player to be immediately warm to you without any existing prejudices.

[Lauront]

I'd say this is the concept of "punching up" and "punching down" in play. It's okay to "punch up", in this case being 'racist' towards a Garlean character, due to them having been in a position of power, while they cannot do the same as that is in turn "punching down". The same thing that happens in many real life interactions.

Yup, so it ends up being a case of "I'll wail 24/7 about 'bigotry', but I'm ok with it when it's used against people I ha-... who have 'power'." It is merely the outflow of a particular form of political view that I would say is fixated on perpetuating conflicts to exploit for political or financial gain.

[Theodric]

I don't have an issue with people playing characters who distrust Garleans or discriminate against them. I do, however, think that there's plenty of legitimate reasons for a Garlean to look down and discriminate against Eorzeans - which is often the point of contention. Personally I believe in nuance rather than absolutes.

Insofar as the Goug situation is concerned, bear in mind that Gabranth is not actually a Garlean himself and may not necessarily be speaking of Garlean ancestry as a whole as a result. Though when it comes to the Reaper lore blurb about peaceful farmers, I was referring to this:

Formerly a peaceful people living from agriculture in the southern part of the continent of Ilsabard, the Garlemaldais were driven from their lands by assailants with magical abilities far superior to theirs and had to settle in a cold and hostile region to the north. from the central mountain range.

Conscious of their natural inability to handle the ether, the Garlemaldais then developed a unique combat technique allowing them to come into contact with the world of nothingness through a crystal to attach the powers of a " avatar ", a creature of nothingness.

Armed with a scythe, reminiscent of their agricultural past, the few elected officials capable of mastering this technique call themselves "reapers"

It's from the French version of the Reaper promotional page, though it expands on what we have to work with in terms of the official lore book when it comes to their origins as well.

I'd also note, that the Dragonsong War lasted for a thousand years and only ended in recent times. The conflict with Garlemald, however, has lasted for a very tiny fraction of time by comparison. If the Ishgardians were able to overcome the scars of a conflict that spanned numerous generations, I'm sure the Eorzeans and Garleans can do the same thing - especially given that Eorzea itself was built on conquest and frequently reaped rewards in the process, which benefit it to this very day.

I'd also note that it doesn't particularly matter how much time has passed when the Garleans suffer from an inability to typically wield aether as the other inhabitants of the Source can. As such, they're always going to be on the defensive until it can be guaranteed that they will be left alone. I'd also note, it wasn't as if they decided to rise up one day and seek to conquer other nations for no reason. Let's also not forget that they did not have the convenience of the Warrior of Light to solve all their problems, which is often what stops Eorzea short of doing the same shady things it did in the past, such as zombifying the inhabitants of Sil'dih.

The conflicts in this game are pretty well written and nuanced. Many role-players choose to ignore that, though that's on them - they're free to avoid interacting with those of us who prefer to portray more complex characters and themes. Though I do think it's rather disingenuous for assumptions to be made about the motives of any individual choosing to portray an antagonist in a fictional fantasy game. Especially when many people have been doing so already across multiple MMO's for years with minimal or no issues and that European role-players seem to have done as much quite consistently.

Ultimately this is a game with a global audience and much of what people are complaining about appears to largely be limited to the North American role-playing community.

[SugarPuff]

I've never role played in an mmo, only D&D and that was quite a few years ago. When I did, it was acceptable to embrace lore based intolerance between races (and classes in some situations) but only to a point that your fellow roleplayers were comfortable.

I don't know, but it would make sense to me if rp like that were more common in games like ESO where you see more Tolkien inspired fantasy. In that franchise and I would have to assume also any MMO directly based on LOTR or (if one exists) D&D, long-standing friction exists between the races. In FFXIV you have to know this game, not just any Final Fantasy. Of course, people are always free to create racist characters based solely around their personal backstories and that must happen but it's not something I ever encountered.