Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

[Layte_Aeon]

Elemental summons are a replacement for Egi Assaults and Enkindle, not DoTs. SMN lost DoTs and got nothing in return.

What did DoTs add to the overall kit though? Bane and Fester just amount to more damage which the Endwalker tools will still give us and Tri Disaster means you push 1 button instead of 2. This isn't like Bard where the DoTs are a key aspect to the jobs mechanics, on Summoner they were just retextured damage. A sizable amount of damage to be sure, but it is rather telling that most of Summoners changes can be traced to the Egi rework not the DoTs disappearing.

[aveyond-dreams]

Summoner lost dots in exchange for rite and catastrophe spells whose cast times and effects alter depending on our gem summon, along with a unique 3rd ability per summon. This information is widely available at this point. I suppose if one was entirely averse to FF content creators it would have been easy to miss the enormous amounts of videos made on 6.0's job changes.

Anyway, we do not need to juggle poison magic on top of what we already have now, as it would distract from the class fantasy and primary mechanic which is summon magic.

6.0 summoner draws thematically from Garnet's 1 off jewel summons along with mechanically Rydia's black magic from FFIV which likely inspired the new rite and catastrophe spells. Despite however much some have implied, Bio was not a particular highlight of her set of abilities. Ruby, our Firaga and Flare. Emerald, Tornado (though this spell was rarely, if ever used). Quake was also part of her kit back then too. I'd like harder hitting spells along with more summons in future updates, not boring things to keep track of.

[Roda]

You pretty much go through a summon cycle over and over. I'll personally love it since it'll feel like a BLM with a bunch of instant casts outside some slight downtime when Bahamut or Phoenix are recharging. Bahamut/Phoenix share a CD I am assuming of 60 seconds. So with that in mind we have:

16 seconds of Bahamut/Phoenix
12.63 seconds of Ifrit
12.05 seconds of Titan
10.29 seconds of Garuda

Roughly 50.97 seconds. So after Bahamut/Phoenix you only need to spend 10 seconds or 5 GCDs before continuing to summon chain again.

Bahamut > Arcanum > Filler > Phoenix > Arcanum > Filler > Repeat

Filler is probably going to be Ruin 3, ED/ES, Fester/Pain, Ruin 4. I suspect Ruin 3 and Fester/Pain/Ruin 4 weaving will be a thing.

SMN will not want Spellspeed I don't think.

If I recall correctly, there's room for one ruin III and one ruin IV within one 60 second demi->Gemphase loop.
(Remember, ALL of your Summon X actions are SPELLS not abilities, so they trigger a gcd and prolong your time in their phase for that amount, and the cooldown for trance starts ticking as soon as you enter it.)
Bahamut phase: 15 seconds
Ifrit phase: 13.1 = (Summon ifrit (2.5s) + Ruby rites 2(2.8) + Crimson cyclone & crimson strike 2(2.5)) (Or, 12.8 if you swiftcast one of the rites)
Garuda phase: 12 = (Summon garuda (2.5s) + emerald rites 4(1.5) + slipstream (3.5))
Titan phase: 12.5 = (Summon titan (2.5s) + topaz rites 4(2.5))
(why is)Ruin IV(still a thing) = 2.5s
Which all together is 55.1s (54.8 if you swiftcasted ruby rite)
(if my numbers are off, yell at me. I'm operating on like 3 hrs of sleep, and I have fatigue induced dyscalcula. @_@)


So that's one (maaaaaaaaaaybe two if you have jpn ping and swifted your ruby rite) ruin III(s) you can cast before you need to get a hustle on with your demi timers. It's going to be VERY rough for players who aren't confident with their rotation, as the cast windows are now very tight.
And since your demi phase should be matching up with your group's burst and buff windows (since we're all synced to around 60s - 120s) you wanna fit your aetherflows into your demi phases for that extra FREE DAMAGE with all them juicy buffs (and comfy insta gcds to fit them in)

And, to MAKE GEARING HELLISH, our phase timer availability is dictated by our spellspeed (Summon bahamut cd, the speed at which we can blast through our rites, etc).... there has been some cursed discussions going on about how spsd will fit into our gearing... I have been ignoring these discussions, because I know the conclusion will hurt my soul. (Also, fun fact. our cpm will be about the same as it is now. potentially faster with spellspeed. Better fire up those "carpal tunnel" memes!)

(Also a point of critique, It shouldn't be a good thing if Job A reminds you of Job B if Job B and Job A are within the same roles. :T That's like, my biggest complaint. SMN was a unique caster with arcane spells, pet management, and status effect management. Now all the casters are elemental direct damage nukers. It's all very samey. But hey, SE drew a smiley face on our fireball... grumble grumble)

Elemental summons are a replacement for Egi Assaults and Enkindle, not DoTs. SMN lost DoTs and got nothing in return.

Egi assaults were more than just pet flavored instant casts, they were a resource you had to manage, and a priority branching point for mobility risk/reward.
The "button press asap to wield a primal like a bat for one singular whack" summons and "get through these gcds as fast as possible to not slide into drift hell" gemshine/precious brilliance spells don't really replace the core functions and payoffs of proper egi assaults/ruin IV usage. They're closer to current ruin III/II, (Are you supposed to be doing something different? If not, spam this) or "oops all phoenix trance!"

[rewd]

Egi assaults were more than just pet flavored instant casts, they were a resource you had to manage, and a priority branching point for mobility risk/reward.
The "button press asap to wield a primal like a bat for one singular whack" summons and "get through these gcds as fast as possible to not slide into drift hell" gemshine/precious brilliance spells don't really replace the core functions and payoffs of proper egi assaults/ruin IV usage. They're closer to current ruin III/II, (Are you supposed to be doing something different? If not, spam this) or "oops all phoenix trance!"

I know, I'm not comparing them from a mechanical standpoint (because they are not the same, sadly), but thematically they are replacing our old pet actions.

[Roda]

I know, I'm not comparing them from a mechanical standpoint (because they are not the same, sadly), but thematically they are replacing our old pet actions.

Fair point.
(but also no because particle effects aren't replacements for friendly cooperation >:c)

[MercuryD]

At least I keep my sparkle dog!

[MagiusNecros]

If I recall correctly, there's room for one ruin III and one ruin IV within one 60 second demi->Gemphase loop.
(Remember, ALL of your Summon X actions are SPELLS not abilities, so they trigger a gcd and prolong your time in their phase for that amount, and the cooldown for trance starts ticking as soon as you enter it.)
Bahamut phase: 15 seconds
Ifrit phase: 13.1 = (Summon ifrit (2.5s) + Ruby rites 2(2.8) + Crimson cyclone & crimson strike 2(2.5)) (Or, 12.8 if you swiftcast one of the rites)
Garuda phase: 12 = (Summon garuda (2.5s) + emerald rites 4(1.5) + slipstream (3.5))
Titan phase: 12.5 = (Summon titan (2.5s) + topaz rites 4(2.5))
(why is)Ruin IV(still a thing) = 2.5s
Which all together is 55.1s (54.8 if you swiftcasted ruby rite)
(if my numbers are off, yell at me. I'm operating on like 3 hrs of sleep, and I have fatigue induced dyscalcula. @_@)

Dunno if any of our numbers are off my metric is strictly using the GCD recast times(not the cast time) which disregards any abilities that are off the GCD. If the rotation is actually 55 seconds before popping Phoenix that really only leaves time for Fester/Pain Weaves and one Ruin 3 > Ruin 4.

I think if players like MCH they will like SMN. SMN is going to become the most mobile caster due to how now 90% of their kit is INSTANT. It's amazingly good.

[Mansion]

This doesn't sound quite right. Summoner is losing...
DOT Management
Tri-disaster cooldown management
Pet management
Consideration of Egi-Assault and Ruin 4 usage such that you have Ruin 4s for Bahamut or weaving, and egi-assaults for movement, without overcapping when you go into a demi-phase

And what do we get in exchange? We get the most boring part of the existing kit, hitting two buttons during Phoenix phase, except that is now the entire job.

I don't think you are being fair to the job in your list, and giving it more complexity through your wording than it actually has in practice.

DoT management, as I said. And actually you can bake Tri-Disaster cooldown "management" which wasn't a real thing, the flow of the rotation made it automatic, not something to actually micro-manage. Losing DoT uptime was very hard, you had three Tri-D applications and one manual application every 30 seconds.

Pet management, whatdo you mean by that? As of 5.X, you press Egi Assaults, and Enkindle once every two minutes. That's not management, and besides that's not going away either. You'll still have a carbuncle, you'll still have an equivalent to Egi Assaults which change based on the elemental summon and have micro mecanics within, as Titan has an oGCD weaving part and movement, Ifrit has a melee component, and I forgot about Garuda, apart from the puddle lol- but that's more ellaborated in my opinion than Egi Assaults into Ruin 4, as you will want to plan you elemental summons according to mechanics, within the time frame between two trances. I'm not saying it's big brain complexity level, but it's something to consider. And I'm certain we will still have to fight ghosting, so I guess you can call that "pet management" especially with Carbuncle disappearing even more often because of the Summons. Now between 3.0 / 4.0 and 5.0 I would agree we lost management because the pet's position and health pool had implications (I remember losing my carbuncle to Kefka's tank buster quite a lot).

I do agree with you that it makes Bahamut more simple by not having to prepare it with the Ruin IV stacks. But I'm not ruling out the idea that the job's flow might create new opportunities of optimization with its new system either.


I'm not saying 6.0 will be the best implementation of SMN ever, don't get me wrong. I was just talking about how in comparison to MCH and DRK which were indeed made easier, it doesn't seem that apparent in SMN as of today with the info we have.

[Roda]

Dunno if any of our numbers are off my metric is strictly using the GCD recast times(not the cast time) which disregards any abilities that are off the GCD. If the rotation is actually 55 seconds before popping Phoenix that really only leaves time for Fester/Pain Weaves and one Ruin 3 > Ruin 4.

I think if players like MCH they will like SMN. SMN is going to become the most mobile caster due to how now 90% of their kit is INSTANT. It's amazingly good.

I am also using the recast timers with zero spellspeed(or cast time, if it's longer than the recast, basically just how much time you're NOT pushing other buttons.)
If you're looking at media tour tooltips, remember, they had spellspeed on their gear which both changes the cast times and the recast times of every ability that isn't connected to aetherflow, astral flow, or the carbuncle, which means the demi phases get pushed closer together as their cooldowns are affected by spellspeed. (Aaaannnd that means, the more spellspeed you have, the more potential you have to lose a ruin 3, since garuda's gcds (that aren't slipstream) literally cannot go any lower since they've hit the floor of 1.5s)

And remember, you want to fit all the damage you can under buffs, so that means you will be lining up your demi phases and aetherflow spending with those buffs. (Searing light, and whatever group buffs you have) the timers for all of those things line up, so you really shouldn't be sitting on stacks during the demi phases or spending them outside of those phases unless something has gone seriously wrong.

And just wait until we get hit with the range AND utility AND now mobility tax. :T

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

And just wait until we get hit with the range AND utility AND now mobility tax. :T

Doubt it, the devs have caster bias and will just nerf WHM or Bard instead. And current SMN already has all three of those and was only barely slapped on the wrist. If any caster is getting nerfs it'll probably be Red Mage. That Embolden change is too great to ignore as it'll now affect the majority of Ninja's Mudras, the entirety of Paladin's Requiescat/Blade phase, other casters in the party and the healers.