Reset time with xpansion. Lets deal with the cheating finally.

[Risvertasashi]

Well if people are teleporting, SE can definitely detect that and they'll get the banhammer in time.

The last time people cheated in a raid setting, waaaaay back in second coil, they got the banhammer too. Unless you mean like camera/zoom out mods, well, that's a bit less detectable but I'm also not particular concerned by what little advantage that gives people. Or the automatic waymarks, but that was patched out. And then... I guess there's still automatic overhead markers. But, again, that's pretty banal as far as advantage goes. It's not like people can cheat to add 1000 or 10000 to their DPS, that'd be a much bigger deal since it'd break down the fundamentals of the game.

While I wouldn't call SE's mostly-laissez-faire approach ideal, I also think people get way too bent out of shape over minor things like auto callouts or even just that the DPS meter exists.

My ideal would be if SE provided an official modding API, as that would provide a clearer line on "this is acceptable" and "this is not acceptable", but they dropped all plans for mod support long ago and per their recent liveletter, well, they acknowledge that basically "what constitutes unacceptable third party app use" is a conversation that would never end so use anything at your own risk.

So we're stuck with this awkward "don't ask don't tell" situation where you can parse, graphically mod the game, have auto callouts, etc as long as you don't tell anyone, but if you do anything that sends data to the server - even if it seems as innocuous as markers - you're taking a much bigger risk.

It's not ideal, but time and again it comes up and this is what we're left with.

[Setesh45]

Well if people are teleporting, SE can definitely detect that and they'll get the banhammer in time.

The last time people cheated in a raid setting, waaaaay back in second coil, they got the banhammer too. Unless you mean like camera/zoom out mods, well, that's a bit less detectable but I'm also not particular concerned by what little advantage that gives people. Or the automatic waymarks, but that was patched out. And then... I guess there's still automatic overhead markers. But, again, that's pretty banal as far as advantage goes. It's not like people can cheat to add 1000 or 10000 to their DPS, that'd be a much bigger deal since it'd break down the fundamentals of the game.

While I wouldn't call SE's mostly-laissez-faire approach ideal, I also think people get way too bent out of shape over minor things like auto callouts or even just that the DPS meter exists.

My ideal would be if SE provided an official modding API, as that would provide a clearer line on "this is acceptable" and "this is not acceptable", but they dropped all plans for mod support long ago and per their recent liveletter, well, they acknowledge that basically "what constitutes unacceptable third party app use" is a conversation that would never end so use anything at your own risk.

So we're stuck with this awkward "don't ask don't tell" situation where you can parse, graphically mod the game, have auto callouts, etc as long as you don't tell anyone, but if you do anything that sends data to the server - even if it seems as innocuous as markers - you're taking a much bigger risk.

It's not ideal, but time and again it comes up and this is what we're left with.

Auto callouts, markings etc. destroyed dungeons and raids in WoW. Instead of playing the game, knowing the mechanics you just do what an addon yells at you. Using such things has devastating effects, and it's a HUGE advantage over other players.
It went so far that some fights now rely on you having the addon, and you cannot tell something is happening without the addon. This is a piss poor design and I support the complete ban of all these things.

[Risvertasashi]

Auto callouts, markings etc. destroyed dungeons and raids in WoW. Instead of playing the game, knowing the mechanics you just do what an addon yells at you. Using such things has devastating effects, and it's a HUGE advantage over other players.
It went so far that some fights now rely on you having the addon, and you cannot tell something is happening without the addon. This is a piss poor design and I support the complete ban of all these things.

So, first off, this isn't wow.

And I don't mean that as dismissively as it might sound at first. FF14's fight design is different. A lot of the more intricate mechanics can't be automated - even if you have an addon giving you a timeline of the fight and a callout that "hey this mechanic is happening now!", you have to coordinate with your team to solve it and the addon can't tell you exactly what to do. A lot of the time it can't even give you a vague idea of what to do, other than "Pay attention cause the thing is happening".

But, regardless, your support doesn't matter - It's already "banned"/forbidden.

buuuut SE's stance on enforcement is "don't ask don't tell" and they don't want to change the status quo, so some people will quietly use them. But also plenty of people don't use them. Everyone on console. PC players that can't be bothered/rely on raid leader callouts/think it cheapens the game, etc etc

[Setesh45]

So, first off, this isn't wow.

And I don't mean that as dismissively as it might sound at first. FF14's fight design is different. A lot of the more intricate mechanics can't be automated - even if you have an addon giving you a timeline of the fight and a callout that "hey this mechanic is happening now!", you have to coordinate with your team to solve it and the addon can't tell you exactly what to do. A lot of the time it can't even give you a vague idea of what to do, other than "Pay attention cause the thing is happening".

But, regardless, your support doesn't matter - It's already "banned"/forbidden.

buuuut SE's stance on enforcement is "don't ask don't tell" and they don't want to change the status quo, so some people will quietly use them. But also plenty of people don't use them. Everyone on console. PC players that can't be bothered/rely on raid leader callouts/think it cheapens the game, etc etc

Okay, you can't play the game without third party software telling you what to do, good, now we know.

[Risvertasashi]

Okay, you can't play the game without third party software telling you what to do, good, now we know.

Going for the personal attacks huh?

I do just fine without it, as do many others. And there are many that can't raid without someone calling it out in discord. One might choose to be elitist and gatekeepy - some people do scorn others' needs for callouts, be they human or not, but it doesn't change the realities of how people play.

For me personally, I just still don't get why people get bent out of shape for it. "Oh no! Someone got told a mechanic is coming!" Yeah it'd be different if there were cheats that added DPS or allowed invulnerability or literally moved your character for you, but... callouts are such a frivolous thing to get upset over, lol

[Liam_Harper]

Auto callouts, markings etc. destroyed dungeons and raids in WoW. Instead of playing the game, knowing the mechanics you just do what an addon yells at you. Using such things has devastating effects, and it's a HUGE advantage over other players.

While I agree that automarkers and callouts are going too far (and even the devs agree, hence removing the ability to place waymarks in combat), it's sadly much worse than addons. Bots are used to run dungeons and leveling instances, automate rotations and assist with avoiding mechanics. They don't hide it, they have public forums or discords where they talk about it. Apparently they have been used even in high end content, such as Savage. It's also a reason for things like provoke spamming tanks in alliance who don't turn the boss or listen, their tank bot is programmed to provoke whenever they aren't on top of the aggro table. Gathering and craft bots too are common too among regular players and not just RMT sellers.

There is a serious botting issue that's worse than many realize and will only continue to develop as more people realize SE have no power over it.

[Setesh45]

While I agree that automarkers and callouts are going too far (and even the devs agree, hence removing the ability to place waymarks in combat), it's sadly much worse than addons. Bots are used to run dungeons and leveling instances, automate rotations and assist with avoiding mechanics. They don't hide it, they have public forums or discords where they talk about it. Apparently they have been used even in high end content, such as Savage. It's also a reason for things like provoke spamming tanks in alliance who don't turn the boss or listen, their tank bot is programmed to provoke whenever they aren't on top of the aggro table. Gathering and craft bots too are common too among regular players and not just RMT sellers.

There is a serious botting issue that's worse than many realize and will only continue to develop as more people realize SE have no power over it.

Indeed and this supports my claim even further. If you can automate the whole process, making an addon that tells your what and when to do it is the same, just easier.
That's why I consider this claim invalid and nothing more than a third party software user defending it so they can keep using it:

FF14's fight design is different. A lot of the more intricate mechanics can't be automated - even if you have an addon giving you a timeline of the fight and a callout that "hey this mechanic is happening now!", you have to coordinate with your team to solve it and the addon can't tell you exactly what to do. A lot of the time it can't even give you a vague idea of what to do, other than "Pay attention cause the thing is happening".

[Vahlnir]

Auto callouts, markings etc. destroyed dungeons and raids in WoW. Instead of playing the game, knowing the mechanics you just do what an addon yells at you. Using such things has devastating effects, and it's a HUGE advantage over other players.
It went so far that some fights now rely on you having the addon, and you cannot tell something is happening without the addon. This is a piss poor design and I support the complete ban of all these things.

None of those things destroyed the game. Absolutely none of them. Addons aren't really some huge advantage either since they are readily available and easy to install. What destroyed WoW was arrogance and hubris on behalf of the company and its developers. Sadly, they continue barreling towards destruction even now. It seems like you haven't played WoW much over the years, if at all. That's the only way you could have come to this conclusion.

[Deceptus]

None of those things destroyed the game. Absolutely none of them. Addons aren't really some huge advantage either since they are readily available and easy to install. What destroyed WoW was arrogance and hubris on behalf of the company and its developers. Sadly, they continue barreling towards destruction even now. It seems like you haven't played WoW much over the years, if at all. That's the only way you could have come to this conclusion.

Rader.io didn't help either.

The community basically is fighting against itself.

[Vahlnir]

Rader.io didn't help either.

The community basically is fighting against itself.

Didn't help, no. But it is more of a symptom of the bigger issues.