People not waiting for other people to finish cutscenes....why?

[Thaciscokidd]

snip

This(for the longest time) needs to be clarified by SE officially. Unless you get some super hardline GM, if they look at the logs and flags that are in place it would be easy to declare not a problem or if it does go through get appealed and get overturned, or get Uno reversed cause the other person could interpret it the exact opposite way and still fall within the Nuisance behavior tab.

[SannaR]

yes? like, that's one weird way to do it if you really don't want to help someone that pulls, but yes
not helping someone that pulled is a breach of the TOS and is directly brought up as an example

Yet how would you know if said person is doing so on purpose if they don't state that they're not going to fight the boss just because someone has the in CS symbol next to their name? You can't. Course you also can't tell unless the person states that they're going to the opposite. So, unless you know all the time that someone is doing something out of spite and thus griefing you're just nitpicking semantics.

[Fyrebrand]

not helping someone that pulled is a breach of the TOS and is directly brought up as an example

DPS #1: "Alright, let's kill the boss. I want to be done with this place."
DPS #2: "Uh, it looks like the Tank and Healer are still in a cutscene. I don't think we can beat the boss without them..."
DPS #1: "I don't care, I'm going to pull the boss and then it will be NecESaRy gAMepLAy that you are REquiReD to help me with!"
DPS #1: "That's silly, I don't have to do what you say. Half our group is not even able to participate yet."
DPS #2: "Look, look! YOU just let me die! You're in real trouble now, bucko! You are reported!"

GM: "What have we here? Uh oh, that DPS clearly was not performing the necessary gameplay simply because they did not like the other DPS. I shall have to ban them for being toxic. What a shame, if only they hadn't enabled skip playback of previously viewed cutscenes they could have done the exact same thing but then it would somehow be Rules Approved™.

[Rinhi]

Yet how would you know if said person is doing so on purpose if they don't state that they're not going to fight the boss just because someone has the in CS symbol next to their name? You can't. Course you also can't tell unless the person states that they're going to the opposite. So, unless you know all the time that someone is doing something out of spite and thus griefing you're just nitpicking semantics.

because many people can't keep their mouths closed when they do something to "teach" another player a lesson, just look at the countless amounts of YPYT tanks or the healers that announce they're going to stop healing someone for whatever reason
it's not really nitpicking at all, but whatever

DPS #1: "Alright, let's kill the boss. I want to be done with this place."
DPS #2: "Uh, it looks like the Tank and Healer are still in a cutscene. I don't think we can beat the boss without them..."
DPS #1: "I don't care, I'm going to pull the boss and then it will be NecESaRy gAMepLAy that you are REquiReD to help me with!"
DPS #2: "That's silly, I don't have to do what you say. Half our group is not even able to participate yet."
DPS #1: "Look, look! YOU just let me die! You're in real trouble now, bucko! You are reported!"

GM: "What have we here? Uh oh, that DPS clearly was not performing the necessary gameplay simply because they did not like the other DPS. I shall have to ban them for being toxic. What a shame, if only they hadn't enabled skip playback of previously viewed cutscenes they could have done the exact same thing but then it would somehow be Rules Approved™.

I never said something like this couldn't be possible and again, I think people who pull in cutscenes are rude, too, all I'm saying is that knowingly not helping someone is clearly defined as going against the TOS, just as someone who would repeatedly pull the boss over and over and over without waiting
if it's acted upon or not, that's a whole nother matter

[technole]

JFC that must’ve been a scuffed Dalriada then, most of the times that fight takes at most 10 minutes.

Very, these show up sometimes, a little more as we get towards the end of content relevancy.

X amount of new people, X amount of no essences, X amount of deaths add up.

[Bobby66]

They are free to watch the cutscene, while the others are free to kill the boss. Everyone wins.

[Fyrebrand]

all I'm saying is that knowingly not helping someone is clearly defined as going against the TOS, just as someone who would repeatedly pull the boss over and over and over without waiting

Okay, but I really don't agree that the quote of the ToS you provided is as clear-cut as you seem to think it is. What is "necessary gameplay required of the situation"? When I read that, I think they are talking in a general sense of playing the role you signed up as -- if you're a tank, you tank -- if you're a healer, you heal, that sort of thing. If I pop into a dungeon on my WHM and just cast Stone over and over and let the Tank and DPS die, refusing to do any healing, then I'm not fulfilling my role for the dungeon and I suppose that would be against the ToS. Or if, as you also quoted, I simply refuse to heal a particular player out of spite because I don't like them, then yeah that's a problem too. It's more about player behaviour, attitude, and cooperation over the course of the dungeon experience.

But I don't think "necessary gameplay" is something that gets dynamically toggled on and off between pulls, or spontaneously created at the whim of any individual player, which trumps the wishes of others in the group. If somebody says "Excuse me, but I have to step away from the computer for a moment I will be right back," and then you pull anyway and wipe, that AFK player did not breach any terms of service. They did not "let you die." You got yourself killed. Likewise, if a player is in a cutscene they are not breaking any rules for not participating in combat with you, and neither do I think I would be if before the boss I said "I see the new player is still in a cutscene, I would like to wait for them" and then did so. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to do, within the context of the game rules. And I don't think the rules magically change depending on whether you're a Tank, Healer, or DPS. It's not that I'm unwilling to cooperate or perform my role, it's that I will perform my role at the appropriate time, when the group is ready.

Again, the game has a "Ready Check" function built in, which explicitly offers players the opportunity to say they are not ready to continue, for any reason. If you proceed to pull when others are not ready, you can't blame them for that.

Let's be real, we're basically only talking about those few dungeons that have significantly longer story cutscenes -- not those brief boss intros where a chimera roars at you for a moment. These scenes are more important to the game's story, and engaging in combat bombards that player with annoying pop-up messages and battle noises, not to mention unfairly peer-pressures them into rushing and speed-reading the dialogue or skipping altogether. In the case of Toto-Rak, it's possible to kill the end boss before the newbie is even out of the cutscene. This is not what Square Enix wants, and they did not design their Terms of Service to be a bludgeon for impatient players to wield and twist how they like.

Also, dungeons are group content, not partial group content and certainly not content for first-timers to sit out on while the experienced folks go on without them. In a 4-player party, if one player is in a cutscene and another player wishes to wait for them, that's already 50% of the group who is not ready to plow ahead. Anyone who pulls under that circumstance, in my opinion, is being uncooperative and is in spirit "not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation." And they certainly are not the one who decides "necessary gameplay begins now, do what I say or else you're breaking the ToS."

if it's acted upon or not, that's a whole nother matter

Well, I have to disagree there too, because I don't think a GM would look at a player waiting for someone in a cutscene and think "Well, before someone got impatient and pulled the boss, no one was breaking any rules. But then as soon as that one person got impatient, that's when everybody else had to obey what they wanted, so they suddenly all violated the Terms of Service." And I don't think it's even a matter of "It was a minor violation, I'll let it slide this time," I think it's a matter of "Why is this even being reported?" I almost would expect that if the same player repeatedly reported players for this often enough, they might get a warning about abusing the Report system.

Either way, none of us are GMs, and I guess it's not our job to interpret what the ToS says as it is very vaguely worded and can mean basically whatever you want it to mean. But I would be curious, have there been any interviews or articles where Yoshi-P or some other dev has talked about these situations specifically? I would be extremely surprised if they flat-out said that we're breaking the ToS if we wait for people in cutscenes -- especially if they said something like "if you haven't disabled repeated cutscenes, it's fine to sit there for 3 minutes and not participate in combat... but if you instead just voluntarily wait for someone else in a cutscene, then you broke the rules."

[van_arn]

They are free to watch the cutscene, while the others are free to kill the boss. Everyone wins.

Yep, this makes sense. The party will do whatever the party wants to do. Any one person won't decide anything.

[Izscha]

Yet how would you know if said person is doing so on purpose if they don't state that they're not going to fight the boss just because someone has the in CS symbol next to their name? You can't. Course you also can't tell unless the person states that they're going to the opposite. So, unless you know all the time that someone is doing something out of spite and thus griefing you're just nitpicking semantics.

This kind of ppl can't shut it about it, just look at this forum they have no problem to say that they'll grief for what they believe is right.
So it's easy bait at this point.

[Rinhi]

Either way, none of us are GMs, and I guess it's not our job to interpret what the ToS says as it is very vaguely worded and can mean basically whatever you want it to mean. But I would be curious, have there been any interviews or articles where Yoshi-P or some other dev has talked about these situations specifically? I would be extremely surprised if they flat-out said that we're breaking the ToS if we wait for people in cutscenes -- especially if they said something like "if you haven't disabled repeated cutscenes, it's fine to sit there for 3 minutes and not participate in combat... but if you instead just voluntarily wait for someone else in a cutscene, then you broke the rules."

I doubt there will be any interviews like that, tbh, the TOS is worded vaguely on purpose so the GMs have leeway with their enforcement, the same way they take the different culture of the DCs (and probably servers) into context as well
the weird part about this discussion that we're almost completely in agreement about dungeon etiquette regarding attitude and co
but I disagree about 1-2 things

If somebody says "Excuse me, but I have to step away from the computer for a moment I will be right back," and then you pull anyway and wipe, that AFK player did not breach any terms of service. They did not "let you die." You got yourself killed. Likewise, if a player is in a cutscene they are not breaking any rules for not participating in combat with you

correct, that is one of the clear cut things mentioned in the TOS, but regarding the rest of the sentence:

and neither do I think I would be if before the boss I said "I see the new player is still in a cutscene, I would like to wait for them" and then did so.

the player that pulled, and possibly the GM in case they reported you, could disagree, seeing as you did not fulfil your role and one could argue that you did not heal them due to your dislike (due to them pulling) of them
I agree that it's a stupid reason to report someone for when someone does it (asking not to pull and if someone still pulls anyway, not healing them) nicely or politely, but if it's from someone on a high horse, trying to show how nice they are and how deeply wrong the person who pulled is, like earlier in the thread*, then my sympathies for players like that is just completely gone and I feel that they should get a reality check, that they're just as toxic as the player they're 'teaching' something and thus, I hope that players like that do get reported and get a GM visit, even if I think it's a complete non-issue in the first place in 99/100 cases

*which I sadly can't show or quote anymore because several pages of posts got removed for no reason, including one where I posted almost the same post I made earlier on what I do when someone pulls
though this lack of context made people instantly jump at my throat at how toxic I am for thinking that a toxic player should get reported and that I must be one of the impatient people who instantly puls and don't care about anyone else, which couldn't be further from the truth, yet it shows how some of those 'nice' players love to assume how things are and must be, and that someone who quite literally does agree with them that it's rude, must be a 'bad' person and whatnot, at least on the forums here
their posts later got removed, too, which at least made some sense considering they were attacking someone, but considering the first wave of removed posts weren't anything of the sort, it makes me wonder why troll threads can stay up for however long, while normal, on-topic discussions get gutted or straight out removed like this without a word