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  1. #1
    Player
    Hainiryun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    30
    Character
    Hainiryun Hairyu
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    I'm not sure it was ever implied that Minfillia becoming the Word of the Mother was part of any plan of Urianger's. he became involved after that point, when Elidibus approached him and he began to set up the double-cross.

    Chances are he didn't specifically team up with Elidibus with the intention of sending Minfillia to the First, just to gain information on the enemy and potentially undermine them at a later date. When things then lined up so that he *could* set things in motion to do that he took the oportunity.

    He's guilty over it because as has already been said, he acted without actually consulting Minfillia (or anyone else) on the matter, a move which essentially "killed" her from the perspective of a bunch of other characters, particularly Thancred and F'lahminn. She never did return from the first after all. Even if Thancred did eventually make it to the First and get to say more of a proper goodbye in Amh Araeng Urainger still essentially had his friend's adopted sibling sacrifice herself for the greater good. It was a betrayal of his friends even if it was well intentioned. He sent her to die.

    You can also arguably trace the sequence of events that leads to her final "death" by giving Ryne her powers back to Urianger's intervention. She'd already sacrificed herself to become the Word but that's the work of gods; Hydaelyn called to Minfillia and Minfillia answered, but orchestrating her journey to the First? That's all on Urianger. If he hadn't sent her to the First she wouldn't have had to spend a century reincarnating and dying over and over again either. For all that Minfillia is relatively serene about it and doesn't hold a grude that doesn't mean he can forgive himself. Maybe if he hadn't done what he did something else might have come up later? Maybe he threw away a chance to free her from Hydaelyn in a way that let her live on? It's not necessarily a *fair* assessment of events but guilt rarely is.

    Urianger's constant deceptions are a bit of a running gag at this point but it's always been a part of his characterisation that he's not just doing it for funsies, he'll act as a double agent or conceal the truth because he genuinely believes it necessary, that doesn't mean he enjoys doing it. Minfillia's sacrifice is sort of emblematic of that. He set up events which in the grand scheme of things were absolutely for the good of basically everyone involved; he saved the First from anihilation, gave the Warriors of Darkness some form of absolution by letting them help save their world after all, powered up Hydaelyn and made a figurative obscene gesture in Elidibus' general direction. But in doing so he hurt people close to him. Urianger's actions, even if they get him dunked on by the other scions on occasion do tend to pan out for the better, but it's not without personal cost.
    (6)

  2. #2
    Player
    Iscah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    14,110
    Character
    Aurelie Moonsong
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Hainiryun View Post
    Urianger's constant deceptions are a bit of a running gag at this point but it's always been a part of his characterisation that he's not just doing it for funsies, he'll act as a double agent or conceal the truth because he genuinely believes it necessary, that doesn't mean he enjoys doing it.
    This is the big thing with his characterisation. He does what he does because he's been put in a position where he has to see that logically this thing needs to happen and he's the one person positioned to achieve it, and the only way for it to succeed is to deceive his friends. He hates it but he can see the alternative is worse.

    I also think people give him far too much blame for doing it again in Shadowbringers. It was the Exarch who pulled him aside, told him a secret that he can see is far too important to break and is basically "well you've got to be part of this scheme now or a hundred years of planning and the fate of two worlds may be doomed, especially if you tell your friends the truth at this point. Thanks for agreeing to help."
    (6)

  3. #3
    Player
    Rosenstrauch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Valnain
    Posts
    827
    Character
    Wind-up Antecedent
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscah View Post
    I also think people give him far too much blame for doing it again in Shadowbringers. It was the Exarch who pulled him aside, told him a secret that he can see is far too important to break and is basically "well you've got to be part of this scheme now or a hundred years of planning and the fate of two worlds may be doomed, especially if you tell your friends the truth at this point. Thanks for agreeing to help."
    I think part of it is that the Exarch's scheme had significant issues with it, such as his presumption that the WoL wouldn't accept his sacrifice and his failure to take into account Emet-Selch. Then there's the part where it backfired horribly. Without Emet-Selch enabling the finale and several miraculous events—Urianger happening to know a powerful Fae who can grant us passage to the bottom of the sea, Ardbert rejoining with the WoL, and the Lightwardens' Light being cancelled out when it struck Emet-Selch—there'd have been at best no saving the WoL, and at worst no saving the First. Neither Urianger nor the Exarch should be given credit for most of these things.

    This also tends to get forgotten, but according to Ryne she was going to have to deal with the Lightwardens if the WoL's summoning failed. With that in mind, it's hard to believe that endangering the WoL's life by having them shoulder the entirety of the burden was even the best course of action.

    But I think the real reason Urianger ends up getting blamed for all this is because he was the one left holding the bag, so to speak. That and he actually got down on his knees and apologized for it, whereas the Exarch never really had the chance to. For some people, the admission of guilt is a bigger sin than actually doing something wrong, as absurd as it sounds.
    (2)
    Last edited by Rosenstrauch; 11-21-2021 at 05:43 AM. Reason: grammar