Time to expand a little on my comments about SE needing to hire a healer designer.

[Sebazy]

I've also worked for a couple of software companies, including the one I am at now.

Do keep in mind that game development salaries are a strange beast, often quite far removed from the rest of the software industry. Whilst I suspect the hiring of wide eyed kids out of the community and modding scene for peanuts isn't as easy as it once was, every large studio still has a sizeable and hungry pool of testers, all of which are on pitiful wages with a very sizeable number of them only enduring it as a means to getting a foot in the door. Portions of the industry have done their best to put a stop to key developers and visionaries getting recognition above and beyond the brand that they work for to try and put a stop to the salaries that these figures can often command.

Then you assume that this dev team would allocate such a resource towards class and encounter design. Much of your post highlights the constraints of adding design member instead of listing reason on how the game would benefit from such a decision. This includes those mundane tasks that are still exceptionally important, especially when being thorough. The other assumption is that the dev team thinks there is anything wrong with their current design. You're talking about adding new members and an increased budget just to make a subset of healers happy who are at wits-end with their ST spam. Meanwhile encounter design is as balanced as it has ever been.

I'm not really getting what you're trying to say with this paragraph? Are you some SE rep that I somehow have to justify my points to? I'm explaining my points as well as I can be bothered to. You took this approach in another thread as well and I genuinely don't get what the point of it is. If you're going to insist on countering me for the sake of it, at least try to use some substance that's a bit more.... substantial? Thanks =(

On your note that the dev team does indeed probably think things are fine, I'm agreement here, this is likely the case or things would still be on the whiteboard. However Yoshida will know as well as anyone that there is only so long that they can keep rolling out the same content in a different frock over and over again. Thus we see experimental ever evolving side content such as Eureka, Bojza. Very few MMOs can afford to sit still, vertical theme parks most certainly can't. My issue is that whilst yes, they are pushing lots of interesting side content out, the core gameplay loop really hasn't changed much in 5 odd years. It's been stated several times right from Yoshida himself that the existing team are working as hard as they can, especially given the difficulties that the global pandemic has placed upon this kind of creative work. Contrary to what the memes would say, this isn't some small Indie team on a shoestring budget. If Yoshida and SE's finance arm both agree that the team needs to expanded then they will make it happen. There comes a point where Yoshida simply has to accept that this game has outgrown his team.

If you're having trouble placing your faith in SE and their management team, then I fear your satisfaction with the game will only continue to decline. I would zoom out and look at the game as a whole in order to restore your faith.

As I've stated in other threads, I still enjoy the game. I simply do stuff as a DPS instead since that's the better way to experience the bulk of the game frankly. Doesn't mean I have to be happy with that as a solution. I play MMOs to heal, this is why I didn't get far in the likes of early GW2 or BNS. It's frustrating that the role I want to play has steadily been pulled out from under me expansion by expansion. So here I am, airing my grievances over it.

I'm surprised that you consider encounter design to be as balanced as it's ever been though. You mean Job design right?

[CrimsonGunner]

gemina if you really are a SE rep then at least pass the message from the healers to the top exec that "guess what, your healer community is upset at the changes".

otherwise i don't understand your approach, nothing will change with that attitude. you expect us to understand what is going on with SE devs when being repeatedly ignored and also treated bad over the years?
yoshi p literally said nothing will change encounter wise cause they want heal to be accessible to even the afk player, so forget about healing more in any form of content.
they won't change downtime design and basically admitted that most feedback that advocated a bit more complex rotations/mechanics for healers was ignored in the LL.
you were also given solid example for mistreatment in the patches when both bahamut and seraph had the same issues and their solution to smn was actually make it so bahamut will use his skills immediately after summon while seraph got a 2 second delay fix and then sch issues were ignored through shb expansion.(and that is not the only example of mistreatment and preffered role treatment)

at least sebazy does try to respect the devs and offer understanding and proper solutions(cause believe me i gave up on trying to understand after seeing those "thought out EW skills all healers got") ,what do you offer to the table then? Which i really ask is ,are you for keeping the jobs as they are or rework them?( i am genuinely asking your stance on the matter and not trying to mock in any way)

[Mortex]

I don't think this should really be made an issue anymore. We have four healers now. That gives us plenty of room to have one super easy healer, one super technical healer, and two middle healers. With twenty jobs and close enough to 1/5 of them being each role, they can't keep trying to make every job work for everyone. If they pop out a healer that is difficult for the average player but is still well-designed, it'll be fine--the players who find it too difficult have three other healing jobs they can try out. Conversely, people who find one healer so simple and boring that they can't stand it should play one of the other healers. But first we have to get to a point where all the healers--regardless of their place in the difficulty spectrum--are designed with clear goals, worthwhile actions, and mechanics that don't conflict within the same job skill set.

I actually hate this kind of thinking. Every job should be easy too play and hard to master. No clue why jobs need to be easy medium and hard difficulty. I mean 90 % of the content can be cleared by pressing 3 buttons by most jobs. At least that gives players that want too be better at the game options and possibilities.

[Mortex]

I'll cut straight to your last paragraph, somehow I can agree with a lot of it although I disagree with how you got there !

I do feel that they want to keep healing >accessible> however as a number of others have previously pointed out they seem to have set the bar for healers extremely low in comparison to other jobs, as if somehow all healers are especially challenged or some monolithic block that wants a particular playstyle. You would think that hundreds of pages of comments would have shown them that it isn't the case.

So they stick to their guns and insist on how healing *should be*, I find that harder to accept given all of feedback from people with years in experience healing all types of content in FFXIV as well of their lack of dedicated healer lead designers.

Also the disconnect how they say healers are atm and how they really are in the game. Don’t forget the one time we’re they said whm heals more then sch, because sch player rather do dmg then help healing and in reality it was the complete opposite because whm ogcd tools sucked big time dudu, we’re sch got so many decent tools and fairy options. Also when yoshi p said they don’t wanna make more dmg spells because they fear it would pressure’s people so they would be forced too use these? Funny because even with just 2 dmg spells people still don’t press them and rather apply medica 2 every 3 seconds because the dungeon boss pulls a group wide 99% aoe attack out of nowhere ( I have no problems when people are actually handicapped and can’t press these buttons, but those people are around 5% and the rest is rather watching Netflix then respect everyone’s time and that I can’t stand). I’m pretty sure I could train monkeys too do that and they still could heal the group in casual content.

[CrimsonGunner]

I’m pretty sure I could train monkeys too do that and they still could heal the group in casual content.

SE done that ,im pretty sure they called trusts ,making healers even more redundant btw.

[Mortex]

SE done that ,im pretty sure they called trusts ,making healers even more redundant btw.

Yes and they even do dmg as healer. And these also have more options then we do. I just love how they trust alphi with a dmg up single target buff more then the actual player’s Or how y’shtola has quake and tornado as black mage but the player whm gets generic light magic.

[Yhisa]

Hmmm i dont think anything is wrong with the healer role at all, and i personally do NOT want to go back to arr/hw era either , most of it was just button bloat for dps

In all honesty and in my own opinion....they need to fix the "level sync" i have been healer all my life, and yes ffxiv is VERY scriptive in its mechanics and once the puzzel have been solved it does become very easy

However when it comes to old content via "level sync" there is something seriously wrong with the coding, and it does not help that they slap "echo" on old content aswell + traits like maim and mend, which also boosts potencies, which ultimately "overkills" old content where it makes healers into this turret mage rather then being a healer

However healers is fine when it comes to endgame content (legit endgame raiding of the current expansion) yes im talking about the ones which does not have echo etc slapped on it

Se need to look @ the level sync coding plus traits aswell as the echo buff and redesign all of it....this is the main reason why healers get bored in any old raids/dungeons/maps

Also alot of the player base will always push for more "dps" buttons thinking that would solve "their" own problem with healing, and i can tell u from arr times ..u seriously do not want more buttons, its an annoyance on healers to maintain several debuffs in form of dots...to manage on a "progression" raid where people are still learning, when everything goes "badly" those uptime goes out the window

But people will still disagree either way cause its what the "individual" wants and dont want to see it as a "whole"

[Yhisa]

Also an extra reminded

Majority of healers have "statics" full of people or equal skill + quick learning etc, so "they" rarely will adventure out away from this static when it comes to raiding

There is a massive difference between "pug" raiding and being in a "static" raid for years ...of course the "static" raid will make thinga boring over time because players will "rarely" make mistake over time and you have a competent co healer + tanks and strong dps

Now when it comes to "pugs" ohhh boy , you often spend more time "healing" and "raising" due to things go badly quickly

The problem lies i think certain people have became too comfortable around their statics (not a bad thing, but it does turns those players to have blinkers equipped only) when reality under the "pug" healers are completely fine...well in severe cases can be VERY stressful to even heal them at times

People need to take a step back as see this from a 3rd perspective , ffxiv is a casual game where u can drop in and out anytime, and even yoshi p have stated this, and its been like this since arr where u can drop in and out

Now i understand people want more "complexity" or more "challenges" but SE have done that in the past and it destroyed alot of statics ....they did this in HW times with Alexander : Midas , since then SE vow to never make that mistake ever again, and this was what the community wanted

So as i said the healer role needs to be seen in 3 lights

static raiding
pug raiding
Old content

[Recon1o6]

snip

I'm afraid to say that a lot of your points have and can be refuted.

first off: there are many comments here and across the healer forums that its not just statics, its everywhere that people don't like the one button dps spam design and low healing amounts. Main scenario, dungeons, alliance raids and yes raiding. The least played content of all the battle content. Buttons should not be stripped just because of raiding because it ruins the rest of the duties

-a lot of people here have played since ARR and HW and people did genuinely enjoy having more buttons to do damage with no matter the content. If there isn't room in the kits for damage buttons, then they need to strip out some of the healing buttons they replaced the damage ones with back in shb launch. Its common knowledge that some of them don't get used and others havent been merged when they really should (cure 1 for example)

-Button bloat was not a problem in those days. Plus now at 6.0 we have charges, context sensitive buttons and upgrades replacing their older counterparts which we didnt have in ARR. Additionally the W cross hotbar which still isnt enabled by default on controller for some weird reason

-Your point on level syncing is completely correct.

-Alexander gordias was rushed and not playtested properly. The devs did the heal checks with godmode on, thats how they ended up with mortal revolution 4 being unsurvivable as a sch at minimum ilvl.
-Midas came out after and was liked, despite astro being numerically better than whm, whm was still preferred for some of it. Additionally we have ultimates now, and they were better for healers back in sb when they had more buttons to damage with

-HW itself was rushed, there were supposed to be 3 tiers of difficulty at gordias, quests for each HW member and more. They had to cut a lot of it.

-casual just means its accessible. Healer kits are more accessible than ever with overpowered healing. There's no skill ceiling because they removed it

[Doragan]

i personally do NOT want to go back to arr/hw era either , most of it was just button bloat for dps

I would argue that since ShB, we have healing buttons bloat, and EW is just going to make it worse, but heh.

In all honesty and in my own opinion....they need to fix the "level sync" i have been healer all my life, and yes ffxiv is VERY scriptive in its mechanics and once the puzzel have been solved it does become very easy

Non sequitur. What's the problem with Level sync? I think it used to be a lot more busted before, but I do kinda understand where you're coming from. (especially SCH in pre-30 content, it still is to some capacity but you really didn't need to do anything back in HW and SB).
The game is definitely scripted, but I admit e12s sorta random p1 was fun for me. So is A11s with numbers, but that's not really important.

However healers is fine when it comes to endgame content (legit endgame raiding of the current expansion) yes im talking about the ones which does not have echo etc slapped on it

I don't think healers are fine. There's very little personal challenge and you spend all the overwhelming majority of your time spamming a nuke, it's really not fun.

Se need to look @ the level sync coding plus traits aswell as the echo buff and redesign all of it....this is the main reason why healers get bored in any old raids/dungeons/maps

I think ARR level sync really locks you out of your base kit, and it can be a bit jarring at times, yeah, but it's definitely not an issue during/after level 50. BLM doesn't play the same until Level 60 though, but EW will fix the mana management. Should be better in some capacity atleast.

However, this isn't why the healers get bored in old content at all.
A single dot and a nuke isn't compelling, interesting, or good gameplay in any content. Could be in Baelsar's Wall or TEA, it doesn't matter.

Also alot of the player base will always push for more "dps" buttons thinking that would solve "their" own problem with healing

There isn't a problem with healing in particular. I could argue the healing actions are too strong, but the issue is that downtime. I want to do more than pressing a dot then nuke until my keycap rots.

and i can tell u from arr times ..u seriously do not want more buttons, its an annoyance on healers to maintain several debuffs in form of dots...to manage on a "progression" raid where people are still learning, when everything goes "badly" those uptime goes out the window

Except that at that time, bar a3s, you rarely needed high healer DPS to pass DPS checks, and if you did need it, it pushed you to play more efficiently. You had things like Virus, Disable, Bane, Selene and Eos having 3 spells each, Rouse. They were useful, and pushed to focus on more things than just Broil.
If you want to stare at the boss for 10 minutes straight, just do it. I'm not going to judge you, but I want to do more than that. Personally, I want more things to do.

But people will still disagree either way cause its what the "individual" wants and dont want to see it as a "whole"

"In all honesty and in my own opinion" -> I don't know about that.
As a whole, I would like to have my DPS options back. If you don't want to use it in dungeons as an "individual", that's perfectly fine. It will not remove anything from your gameplay. However, I want to do more than nuking my fingers off. DoTs and Bane were fun. I want them back.

Majority of healers have "statics" full of people or equal skill + quick learning etc, so "they" rarely will adventure out away from this static when it comes to raiding

I've been helping people progging themselves and they're like every other player. Also, people are humans. Statics break. All the time. I don't think I know anyone in a static who is still as a group since 2.0. Like-minded people,sure. The same people though, no.

There is a massive difference between "pug" raiding and being in a "static" raid for years ...of course the "static" raid will make thinga boring over time because players will "rarely" make mistake over time and you have a competent co healer + tanks and strong dps

No? There might be a communication problem here and there, but pug =/= bad player. You just aren't familiar with them, and they aren't familiar with you. It has nothing to do with making it boring.

Now when it comes to "pugs" ohhh boy , you often spend more time "healing" and "raising" due to things go badly quickly

It's anecdotal at best, but it isn't a generality. And again, people are human. Your "years friends static" also make mistakes. We all do.

The problem lies i think certain people have became too comfortable around their statics (not a bad thing, but it does turns those players to have blinkers equipped only) when reality under the "pug" healers are completely fine...well in severe cases can be VERY stressful to even heal them at times

Which one is it? pugs are bad and you need to heal them or they are completely fine?
And what does it has to do with needing a healer designer, anyways?
It can also be stressful to heal a static. Or to DPS. It's a video game, of course it's going to be atleast a bit stressful in some capacity. Nothing overwhelming though?

People need to take a step back as see this from a 3rd perspective , ffxiv is a casual game where u can drop in and out anytime, and even yoshi p have stated this, and its been like this since arr where u can drop in and out

That doesn't make the Healer role design any less boring currently. You can't casually do UCoB.

Now i understand people want more "complexity" or more "challenges" but SE have done that in the past and it destroyed alot of statics ....

Casual game. Right?
I'm fairly sure no one asked A3S again. All healer players want is something to do.

So as i said the healer role needs to be seen in 3 lights
static raiding
pug raiding
Old content

No.
No.
No.

It's still the same mechanics. The only difference between "static raiding" and "pug raiding" is communication methods and trust. That doesn't impact the actual fights. It doesn't make you do more as a healer. Communication issues may cause some wipes, yes. But it's very much the same fights. If you use the PF macro in statics, you will see it's very much the same. Some things might be different, but it doesn't matter -- It's still same fight.
Old content is unsync'd or simpler due to your potencies being higher to the previous expac,so you can faceroll it.

I'm really sorry to put it this way, but most of the "problems" you raised were about communication and your own preferences. Not the state of the Healer jobs, or their current position in the game.