Are jobs bound by lore?

[Rongway]

Then the only thing that makes machinist a job and not a class is the fact that it holds a soul crystal and it's just a terminology thing.

It still doesn't change the fact that for certain disciplines a soul crystal is 100% required and for others no teachers exist. Even blue mage requires a job stone for blue magic to work despite the fact that it's also blank, like machinist's. Enemy abilities that you learn are stored in the soul crystal. That may be a piece of lore written by game mechanics, but it's still in the story of how things go and it's impossible to be a blue mage without one. Then there's the other jobs I also mentioned where it's also completely impossible to be one without holding the stone, regardless of any training.

You have some good points but I think what we've come to is a set of slightly different questions.

Norvrandt has a few jobs that are very much like Eorzea's White Mage, Black Mage, and Paladin, which they call Devout, Magus, and Knight, developed independently but with many overlapping techniques. Suppose, somehow, an Eorzean Black Mage happened to encounter a Norvrandtan Magus.

• Would the Black Mage recognize the Magus as a Black Mage?
• Would the Magus recognize the Black Mage as a Magus?
• If the Magus learned how to cast black magic without blowing themselves up not through a job stone but through a combination of talent and practice, and incidentally developed a set of techniques that matched the Black Mage's technique set 1:1, would it matter that the Magus didn't have a stone or that they styled themself Magus instead of Black Mage?
• Is only one of them a job because only one of them has a stone?
• Are they both jobs, but different jobs?
• Are they the same job?

[MikkoAkure]

You have some good points but I think what we've come to is a set of slightly different questions.

Norvrandt has a few jobs that are very much like Eorzea's White Mage, Black Mage, and Paladin, which they call Devout, Magus, and Knight, developed independently but with many overlapping techniques. Suppose, somehow, an Eorzean Black Mage happened to encounter a Norvrandtan Magus.

• Would the Black Mage recognize the Magus as a Black Mage?
• Would the Magus recognize the Black Mage as a Magus?
• If the Magus learned how to cast black magic without blowing themselves up not through a job stone but through a combination of talent and practice, and incidentally developed a set of techniques that matched the Black Mage's technique set 1:1, would it matter that the Magus didn't have a stone or that they styled themself Magus instead of Black Mage?
• Is only one of them a job because only one of them has a stone?
• Are they both jobs, but different jobs?
• Are they the same job?

What makes a black mage a black mage is the fact that they cast spells using large amounts of ambient aether to cause pure destruction. The black mage storyline makes it clear that it is impossible to control that much aether without a soul crystal, period. According to the questline, without the stone you will burn yourself inside out trying to control magic outside yourself if you're overstepping your bounds.

Without the Gem of Shatotto, impossible to control, the most powerful black magic is! Squaaawk! Lost control, these mages did. Aether within their own bodies ignited! Burned alive from the inside. Painful way to die, it is.”

I can't remember if Shatotto herself was able to cast full-on black magic without using a soul crystal, but even if she was, she was a prodigy who devoted her life to that one specific goal of wielding that much aether from outside the body. Expecting every magus we meet to be someone of her caliber would be a bit much, let alone someone at her level who also happened to dabble in other disciplines, all without the benefit of a soul crystal.

The destructive, offensive magic that Y'shtola uses in Shadowbringers, and red mages and thaumaturges use, and even that of beastmen, all comes from within themselves using their own aether. In regards to anyone we meet in Norvrandt or the other summoned warriors of light, we never ask, so we don't know if they're using soul crystal analogues or not in order to control their magic if they're casting magic specifically like black mages or if they're casting like every other sorcerer/magi that exists in the game.

Conjurers and geomancers also cast using ambient aether, but apparently not on the same scale as a black mage. Conjury itself descended from magi of the old era passing down "modest magicks, low in risk and easy to wield" combined with teachings from the elementals.


"Job" is a terminology only encountered outside of the game for our own player benefit to separate the "job system" from the "class system". The lore book describes these instead as "specialized disciplines". That terminology is extremely vague, but all that matters to us is that in our own world's history for thousands of years, exceptional people doing exceptional things have carried soul crystals to learn from past holders of the stone, as well as to pass down the techniques to new generations. But the first techniques had to come from somewhere. So of course anyone with sufficient drive would be able to learn without a stone with enough training and study, but it is infinitely easier with a soul crystal, and as I mentioned before, sometimes impossible without.

The job quests have told us outright that the job crystals for black mage, machinist, summoner, scholar, and blue mage are essential to those jobs for reasons beyond their function as learning tools. White mage and astrologian questlines suggest that having the crystal taken away would completely depower you and remove the ability to cast magic from those schools. And the questlines for warrior, dark knight, and dragoon mention that their stones specifically choose and grant powers to the wielder. But to your point, sometimes the distinction doesn't matter. We've seen that with the au ra tribe with a discipline that is similar to warrior. It's when you start getting into magic that things seem more dependent on having a job stone. Or in the case of machinist, which is a brand new "job" in the world's history and the game's writers needed a lore reason for you to be requiredto equip it. Without that lore requirement, machinist could just decide not to put it on if they didn't want to pass anything on.

[Layte_Aeon]

Though this raises a question: If an Astrologian requires a soul crystal for their spells, how is Urianger one in Norvrant?

[Rosenstrauch]

Though this raises a question: If an Astrologian requires a soul crystal for their spells, how is Urianger one in Norvrant?

Maybe there was an Astrologian-like discipline on the First and Urianger happened to get his hands on a soul crystal during his three years of being there. Then again, he's also an Astrologian on the Source post-return, and the Scions explicitly didn't take their gear with them on either trip—their souls arrived on the First naked, and Tataru had to make their personal effects from scratch for their return.

[SannaR]

Maybe there was an Astrologian-like discipline on the First and Urianger happened to get his hands on a soul crystal during his three years of being there. Then again, he's also an Astrologian on the Source post-return, and the Scions explicitly didn't take their gear with them on either trip—their souls arrived on the First naked, and Tataru had to make their personal effects from scratch for their return.

The same way Jannequinard does I assume. Also Leveva post level 60 has let anyone who wants to learn Sharlyean Astrology to do so. Which is similar to Geomancy and last I checked the Hingan we meet in the SB questline doesn't have a stone. That and anyone who won a riddle contest that lasted for seven days against pixies probably can find a way to switch from a 1.0 arcanist to Astrologian.

[MikkoAkure]

Though this raises a question: If an Astrologian requires a soul crystal for their spells, how is Urianger one in Norvrant?

Didn't think of that. Probably an oversight. Or maybe because his body itself is present with the soul stone? Anyone's guess at this point, but the game system describes him as a full-on Astrologian and it's a pretty important plot point in the AST quests that Levava's grandfather needed that stone in order to cast AST spells.

The same way Jannequinard does I assume. Also Leveva post level 60 has let anyone who wants to learn Sharlyean Astrology to do so. Which is similar to Geomancy and last I checked the Hingan we meet in the SB questline doesn't have a stone. That and anyone who won a riddle contest that lasted for seven days against pixies probably can find a way to switch from a 1.0 arcanist to Astrologian.

Levava's grandfather is presumably a better astrologian than Jannequinard and he required a soul crystal, becoming powerless after giving his to us. It could be that smaller scale spells don't require anything special other than training. Just like how conjurers can pull aether from nature and also cure people on their own with just a little help from the elementals and a teacher. But we never see any of the conjurers casting assize or holy.

Regarding Geomancy, I think it has a lot more in common with conjury than astromancy. Both source their aether from the area and elements around them.

[Astralia]

Basically.... job stones are a fucking pain in the ass. The jobs changed so much since the beginning and, as someone already said, they will continue to change as much as it's needed through the next expansions.

Aside from the blackmage where it's crystal clear it's impossible without a job stone, the rest of the jobs, or more precisely specialized disciplines, job stones are not really necessary. They are just here to make someone learn the discipline faster, or to pass on the techniques to the next generation, but in no way jobs are bounded by their job stones nor a job is a job just because it has a job stone. If we go like this, we could simply take a soul crystal and infuse the techniques of a gladiator into that stone.

Concerning the dragoon, if I'm not mistaken, the drg soul crystals take their share of power from Nidhogg's eyes, only the Azure Dragon is given the eye to benefit from its full power. Moreover, even if a newbie gets his hands on a drg soul stone, it does not mean he has what it takes for the crystal to awake and let him learn the techniques inside it. But it absolutely does not mean either he can't learn the job without the stone, with training and perseverance all is possible, and either not going to the length of Shattotto spending one's life on the same thing for black magic.

Again, Samourai's soul stone is completely useless aside learning the job faster. There are martial arts teachers everywhere in the East (you see them a lot in Bozja, and have some details in the Field Records).

Job stones seem to bind the job to them only from an Eorzean view point, it's much less of a handicap in the East and in the First. From a RP viewpoint, it does not prevent you from learning a similar discipline and having the same power as a "job with a job stone".

But as I said in the beginning, soul stones are a pain in the ass to deal with, so it might be better to ignore them or just stick to the "learning faster or pass on to the next generation" for most of the actual specialized disciplines whether it be for lore or RP purpose.

[Cleretic]

Though this raises a question: If an Astrologian requires a soul crystal for their spells, how is Urianger one in Norvrant?

I believe it is actually stated at one point that Urianger is actually just using Sharlayan techniques he learned back there, and is just falling back to an already-learned skillset rather than picking up a new one. The Astrologian job we have is Sharlayan astrology, after all.