Can we finally get real content / gameplay?

[Tavieon]

Just to mention (my experience in a dungeon)

Last night.... I ran the Praetorium only to be annoyed with the rest of the group. I ran along with everyone else... but purposely ran in last place in case there were someone ...

My argument is.... group play is destroying dungeons.. and people (group play) are the reason why dungeons won't get much better.

I disagree on this comment since he's specifically mentioning Praetorium... Well, this exact dungeon was even more laughable speedfest content back in ARR when skipping cutscenes were possible. Even some YouTube parody video suite mentions this crap... check up RABToons video...


But in general, this comment isn't completely wrong. While working on entire MSQ (from ARR, again, due to losing my old account, to ShB), I've found almost NO dungeons imposing any challenge in terms of dungeon navigation and pull tactics. They say WoW WotLK simplified dungeons too much. But the dungeons after ARR is even simpler than that... But the dungeons after level 50 brackets?... No diverse pathways, no interesting trash monster abilities, just fancy atmosphere with simple, linear pathway... I don't think this is a critical downside. Also, game devs needs to comply with what people wants. This is what people wants, then so be it.

The class abilities seems too unified as well. I've recently worked on two tank classes to 80... They both feel the same in terms of skill usage. Single target combo, aoe combo, survival skills (which most of them are even sorted as 'role' skills.. literally same skills)... Motions are just the difference... This is actually problematic in WoW as well. But at least they have some class identity, still. And no! the 2.5 seconds GCD problem does not disappear in max level gameplay, either.

All things considered, they are not so much of game-breaking mishaps, if everyone is happy with running everyone. But these days, people are not very friendly at all. Some say this game has much more generous attitude than WoW? The fact is, people tends to be more friendly to sprouts. But you'll exceed gameplay time and reach level 80 to not to be able to maintain the sprout. Yet, you won't know all the 80 content inside out. Then people becomes extremely toxic against you. Just like WoW.


To wrap up, the fundamental problem is the people.

[ssunny2008]

Looking at the new media tour content released, it seems like exactly more of the same. Guess we'll have to wait until 7.0 or FFXVII to get expressive and interesting content, won't we? At least the music is neat. Shame we can't get the art, music, and scenario designer team onto a game that *is* willing to try making a different kind of content; I feel FFXIV, what with being made by one of the largest AAA game companies in Japan has a lot of potential for storytelling and setpieces in instances that it doesn't explore. Blame bad database/servers, I guess.

Just checked the Patchnotes and sadly yes.... we do get more of the same. There is nothing special, if anything the most stuff got even more irrelevant with the "average item level", "only boss XP" and ofc again 10 000 fates to grind for some gemstones on each map.
It´s so sad that the whole expansion has been so predictable thx to SE´s lazyness. Again just some good looking but loveless designed maps behind stupid grind to "keep the areas" alive. And wall to wall bang just to waste our time since adds and loot will become completely irrelevant. Maybe just spawn us at the endboss instead of wasting our time and developing ressources with such nonsense?!

It doesn´t go into my head, how SE throws any opportunities with this game out of the window and at the same time ppl are sooooo excited about the same grind and braindead content with nothing but new animations. Anything which i can be excited about is the story. The rest is just copy & paste anyway.

[Talking_Citrus]

Ssunny2008 I don't understand how so many people are shitting on you for having perfectly valid opinions. I doubt any of them were here for the ARR launch. If so, then they have short memories. This game used to have challenging dungeons (especially before the introduction of downscaling which is an absolute joke), some difficulty to the raids & even just questing wasn't a braindead experience. It felt good to explore the various beautiful landscapes, discovering side quests and the occasional secret area.

Arguments like "lol but look at golden saucer and X other activities!" ... Yeah nobody's talking about those. They're fine. Great. We have them and that's good. It doesn't mean we have to just sit by and let the CORE GAMEPLAY go to shit without saying anything.

I feel like this is the story of every big mmo in the last 10-15 years though. Both Everquest and WoW were genre-defining, largely because they had a fantastic gameplay loop that focused on the social elements and the rewarding feeling of overcoming challenges with others. Now there's absolutely no reason to socialize in any of the big mmos thanks to the group finders who throw you into a group within seconds, minutes at worst. Why bother even talking to them when you can just hit the button again?

I'm not saying this was ideal but does anyone here remember having to LFG on the LFG channels, then have everyone travel to the dungeon's location to actually DO a dungeon? You had incentive not to be an asshole, and generally you were just happy to have formed a group and be able to play fun content that was exciting and enjoyable, so people worked well together and everyone had fun. Same era that pulling a pat often meant a wipe, which was FUN. That meant you had to actually use your CC skills properly, healer had to pay attention, manage their mana in case shit hit the fan, tank had to be skillful at maintaining aggro, sometimes on multiple targets, with generally single target abilities & 1 or 2 long cooldown (30+ sec) AoEs. DPS needed to watch their rotations and balance their aggro carefully because unlike now, if that 12 foot tall demonic monstrosity turned around and bitch slapped you the healer and tank only had seconds to save your ass before you were donezo and likely the rest of your group was too.

THOSE were the days. Now you can just spam skills clearing 2-3 rooms at a time while watching Netflix. Wtf is that. Might as well play an idle game. I haven't played in a while and so I'm coming back to re-experience the story but the mmo genre has gone downhill dramatically. By chasing the cash they've alienated a large portion of original mmo fans. Hopefully a company will eventually see that there is, in fact, a huge market in older gamers for an old school experience. Hell, I'd gladly pay $20/month and at least as much on cosmetics just to incentivize the devs to keep it up and most other 30+ year old gamers I know would too. We just need a dev to throw our money at.

[Talking_Citrus]

No diverse pathways, no interesting trash monster abilities, just fancy atmosphere with simple, linear pathway... I don't think this is a critical downside. Also, game devs needs to comply with what people wants. This is what people wants, then so be it.

The class abilities seems too unified as well. I've recently worked on two tank classes to 80... They both feel the same in terms of skill usage. Single target combo, aoe combo, survival skills (which most of them are even sorted as 'role' skills.. literally same skills)... Motions are just the difference... This is actually problematic in WoW as well. But at least they have some class identity, still. And no! the 2.5 seconds GCD problem does not disappear in max level gameplay, either.

All things considered, they are not so much of game-breaking mishaps, if everyone is happy with running everyone. But these days, people are not very friendly at all. Some say this game has much more generous attitude than WoW? The fact is, people tends to be more friendly to sprouts. But you'll exceed gameplay time and reach level 80 to not to be able to maintain the sprout. Yet, you won't know all the 80 content inside out. Then people becomes extremely toxic against you. Just like WoW.


To wrap up, the fundamental problem is the people.

Ultimately, this. The thing that I find troubling though is that I don't think a lot of the newer mmo generation (I'm talking about teenagers mostly) have ever really experienced what (I'm gonna guess from how you're speaking) what we have. I'm not sure they know how satisfying it is to beat a dungeon with varied, interesting, but challenging mechanics, and mobs that are tuned to ACTUALLY wipe you if you aren't careful. If they've learned that the right mindset is to focus exclusively on better gear, why would they want that to take longer? I don't blame them, but I do think it's sad that it's ultimately leading to the absolute demise of what used to be an amazing genre. Keep in mind that anyone who's 18 today likely never would have experienced vanilla WoW or TBC, and DEFINITELY wouldn't have experienced EQ.

[DinahDemiurge]

Ultimately, this. The thing that I find troubling though is that I don't think a lot of the newer mmo generation (I'm talking about teenagers mostly) have ever really experienced what (I'm gonna guess from how you're speaking) what we have. I'm not sure they know how satisfying it is to beat a dungeon with varied, interesting, but challenging mechanics, and mobs that are tuned to ACTUALLY wipe you if you aren't careful. If they've learned that the right mindset is to focus exclusively on better gear, why would they want that to take longer? I don't blame them, but I do think it's sad that it's ultimately leading to the absolute demise of what used to be an amazing genre. Keep in mind that anyone who's 18 today likely never would have experienced vanilla WoW or TBC, and DEFINITELY wouldn't have experienced EQ.

Some of my most vivid MMO memories to this day are experiences I had in EQ and FFXI. EQ I remember falling down a hole and respawning naked...and I found someone kind enough (an enchanter class) to help me get my corpse and stuff back. This was the kind of server where people could STEAL stuff off your corpse, but they were nice and let me have my stuff back. I also have crazy memories of crawler's nest, exploring the zarkabard castle before the demonlord fight, and maguuma jungle in FFXI. I enjoy FFXIV but I have very few of these crazy sorts of memories(actually none, really. Maybe the first round of coils in 2.0 was memorable). There's a reason for this.

[Talking_Citrus]

"IMO, the problem with dungeons is ... group play. The fact that you have to do them with other people is whats destroying the dungeons and dungeon play experience."

"...As a solo dungeon runner... I found the experience more rewarding, more of a challenge, while at the same time... less stressful."

I can appreciate that experience, but that does cause a conflict - group play is the literal point of mmorpgs. If you don't want group play (and I'm not saying this to trash you), you're just as well off playing a regular rpg. It seems clear to me that the large scale solution isn't just for everyone to avoid each other, but rather for there to be incentive to cooperate and bring the social element back. If I knew exactly how I'd be screaming it off the rooftops, but frankly I'm not sure everyone does. It's a mindset problem. A lot of the younger player base have never experienced what I would consider the true spirit of an mmorpg, like most of vanilla WoW for example. When you basically had to make connections, had to treat people had, had to work with them to succeed. I largely blame group finder for absolutely destroying the social elements of mmorpgs. When you make people disposable, you completely negate the social element which is the whole POINT of it being MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER. Shit, back when LFG channels were how you'd group, if you were unpleasant enough in your average experiences you could get blacklisted in a server of 10K active players. Think about that for a minute. 1 player being avoided by most of 10K as a social consequence for being a dick. That concept is likely laughable and mind-blowing to a lot of today's mmo crowd.

[Talking_Citrus]

Some of my most vivid MMO memories to this day are experiences I had in EQ and FFXI. EQ I remember falling down a hole and respawning naked...and I found someone kind enough (an enchanter class) to help me get my corpse and stuff back. This was the kind of server where people could STEAL stuff off your corpse, but they were nice and let me have my stuff back. I also have crazy memories of crawler's nest, exploring the zarkabard castle before the demonlord fight, and maguuma jungle in FFXI. I enjoy FFXIV but I have very few of these crazy sorts of memories(actually none, really. Maybe the first round of coils in 2.0 was memorable). There's a reason for this.

Yes! Love that story btw, thanks for sharing Frankly I didn't play enough EQ myself to have many memories, as I was a big warcraft fan and jumped onto WoW as soon as it came out, but I do have a lot of second-hand experience in stories from friends, etc. and yes, your story highlights what made mmorpgs so incredibly fun - the human interaction. I have countless memories (as a priest main, love healers) of dungeons where fights went awry, but thanks to the heroics of everyone in the group (basically making a series of sometimes pretty creative snap decisions to try and salvage the situation) and instinctive coordination between us (even as strangers, often times) it made for the most EXCITING, INTENSE fights even if it was just a trash pull and a pat ended up flanking us or something. Like, idk if you played WoW but regardless of which dungeon, if you had a 3 mob pull, your rogue sapped 1, but you then got flanked by a 2 mob patrol and the sapped mob woke up before the fight with the other 4 was completely over... Surviving that was MEMORABLE. People had to do some wild shit. Of course, there are tons of fun exploration and RP memories as well, making new friends, randomly saving or being saved by strangers in dire situations, etc... Gah talking about it is bittersweet, it brings back such nice memories but i feel so nostalgic too :3

Idk if anyone who had only played modern MMOs would even believe me if I told them that you could actually feel a bit tired after a really intense dungeon because of the adrenaline rush and coming down from it lol...

[DinahDemiurge]

Yes! Love that story btw, thanks for sharing Frankly I didn't play enough EQ myself to have many memories, as I was a big warcraft fan and jumped onto WoW as soon as it came out, but I do have a lot of second-hand experience in stories from friends, etc. and yes, your story highlights what made mmorpgs so incredibly fun - the human interaction. I have countless memories (as a priest main, love healers) of dungeons where fights went awry, but thanks to the heroics of everyone in the group (basically making a series of sometimes pretty creative snap decisions to try and salvage the situation) and instinctive coordination between us (even as strangers, often times) it made for the most EXCITING, INTENSE fights even if it was just a trash pull and a pat ended up flanking us or something. Like, idk if you played WoW but regardless of which dungeon, if you had a 3 mob pull, your rogue sapped 1, but you then got flanked by a 2 mob patrol and the sapped mob woke up before the fight with the other 4 was completely over... Surviving that was MEMORABLE. People had to do some wild shit. Of course, there are tons of fun exploration and RP memories as well, making new friends, randomly saving or being saved by strangers in dire situations, etc... Gah talking about it is bittersweet, it brings back such nice memories but i feel so nostalgic too :3

Idk if anyone who had only played modern MMOs would even believe me if I told them that you could actually feel a bit tired after a really intense dungeon because of the adrenaline rush and coming down from it lol...

Yeah. I did play WoW with my girlfriend near launch EQ2 came out at the same time and it wasn't good so decided to try WoW with her. The leveling experience was memorable but mainly because it was a pvp server, I think. I did also raid, which was memorable as well...playing a rogue sneaking through the hatchery in blackwing lair with 39 people praying I don't f up when I am in stealth pressing the switches and stuff was pretty fun. Naxx and onwards I didn't really play much tho. AQ was okay.

[Talking_Citrus]

I know that FF14 aims to be a theme park, where there is something for everyone and I really appreciate this idea.

And I really appreciate the effort you put into this post. You have some solid ideas and I agree with your perspective.

That being said, one thing I would just like to add - I too appreciate the idea of having something for everyone because it keeps the game profitable / supported and a thriving player base in a game that's (or at least should be) socially grounded is important!

But, having something for everyone doesn't mean EVERYTHING IS FOR EVERYONE. That's where most big mmos fuck it up imo. I know you're not saying that it should be, but it looks to me like that's what they're all trying to do. Make as much of the content accessible to as wide an audience as possible, which is great in theory but that requires stripping a lot of the elements that make gameplay unique and interesting in the first place.

By its nature things that are accessible to a broad range of interests, skill levels, commitment levels, etc. is going to be increasingly generic the more accessible it is. Everyone has to be able to accomplish everything except the hardest of the hard in end-game content (like savage raids). It doesn't have to be that way. Does your workplace lower expectations because you suck at your job? No. You either get better (be it through coaching or on your own time or w/e) or get fired.

Life in general is this way. If you aren't cutting it, it's not up to the world around you to change to accommodate you. There are millions of games out there - if ONE specific game is too challenging for you, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with spending a bit of time to increase your understanding (lets be real individual mechanics like APM are barely relevant in an mmo, its more about decision making and to some extent reaction time) if you really want to play that game, or just try a different one. I miss games that felt like they were made with love and passion, and consequently felt unique and interesting. Everything is so "safe" nowadays... I worked in the financial sector so I understand investor pressure and prioritizing your ROI but it doesn't have to be all or nothing. ESPECIALLY for a well established company.

[Talking_Citrus]

playing a rogue sneaking through the hatchery in blackwing lair with 39 people praying I don't f up when I am in stealth pressing the switches and stuff was pretty fun. Naxx and onwards I didn't really play much tho. AQ was okay.

Lol right? That tension was part of the fun though! For everyone involved. It's similar to gambling, actually... You're investing your time and gold in Raid Roulette, now lets see if the ball (rogue) lands on Black, Red, or 0(<--- both a dragon egg and a zero - best analogy I could come up with lol). Or, lets see if LEEEEROOOOY JEEEEEENKIIIINS is on one of his alts and it doesn't actually matter where the rogue lands I've never been huge on PvP, I've always preferred PvE content myself, so I was on one of the rare RP servers. Funny how back then factions who didn't get along could totally get away with calling someone something like a "Dirty Dwarf" something something about "Their Kind" which was obviously in character, but nowadays put my hand to a flame that'll land you at least a temp ban for racism or some shit lmao.