Can we finally get real content / gameplay?

[Loggos]

I'm a casual, in the sense that I don't do savage content (due to job reasons I don't have time to join a static) and I do love FF14. It's still one of my favourite games.

But I see exactly where OP is coming from and completely agree with them.

The reasoning that if you have some thorough criticism of the game's current state it must mean "it's just the wrong game for you", that "you probably don't even like it" or that OP is "exhibiting psychologically abnormal behaviour" (I know this was a troll but still) is really strange to me.

People can criticise this game because they love it and see all the potential it has. I think OP's explanation that a lot of things were more enjoyable to them in ARR but then got downgraded gradually makes sense. I also agree that there is a difference between casual game play and it being completely oversimplified.

Given the current climate of everyone expecting you to speedrun dungeons it makes sense that they are designed in a linear fashion. If my daily rewards are tied to a random dungeon, I understand that players want to get through with it as quickly as possible. But as some people pointed out I also believe it's worth questioning why dailies are tied to dungeons in the first place. This design choice enforces this speed-run mentality but a different design/approach to dailies (and dungeons) could lead to a different appreciation of more complex, slow-paced dungeons.

I know that FF14 aims to be a theme park, where there is something for everyone and I really appreciate this idea. Like I said, I do love this game and the variety of content I can experience, from relaxing content like housing to battle content. Sometime after work I even enjoy running a quick dungeon without having to think too much so I'm not saying speed running dungeons has no merit.
I am also fully aware that speed running is a much appreciated genre on its own and has its dedicated player base. In a "theme park" they also should have room for that.
It's just sad that as of now it is the only approach to dungeons.

I understand that this theme park idea makes the game really hard to balance and it makes perfect sense that most of the money comes from casuals like me. But I also feel as if it is an oversimplification to say that no one of those 95% casuals would enjoy a little more challenge.

Something that is not quite Savage level but not as repetitive and easy as it is now.

For example: I do love to use a little more complex rotations but I will not raid in the near future. For that reason, because most casual fights don't demand it, I have little opportunity to really improve my rotation skills. I would love something that would require a bit more engagement, a bit more problem solving, a bit more strategising (and communication with other players!), essentially a bit more complex understanding of my tool kit. Right now, it feels like all or nothing. Super casual or Savage. I would love the in-between.

I know it's more work on the dev team but from a purely conceptual standpoint I do like the idea of some extra/optional dungeons, like labyrinths, that are not designed with speed running in mind but with problem solving and puzzle elements, something that challenges four players a bit more, gives them options for exploration (secret paths, optional bosses) and loot worth fighting for.
It's probably completely utopic but maybe randomly generated dungeons could also be a thing (are the Chalice dungeons in Bloodborne a good example? I don't know, haha).

As for classes, this must be really tricky for the devs if you want to satisfy both casuals and hardcore players but maybe you could expand on the (already kind of implemented) idea of a basic rotation + extended skills for complex content: A (more interesting) basic rotation (than currently implemented for the most part) is enough for casuals to complete their content but it is relatively easy to pick up and doesn't demand perfection. You can just have fun playing and relax.

Then there are skills that you can use to really optimise your gameplay and greatly expand on the complexity of your class. You can use casual content to experiment with and practice the more complex rotations and in hardcore content it’ll be a must to know how to use them.

I think the key issue here is communication. If you show a very complex skill set to casuals they will be overwhelmed. But if the game just makes it unmistakably clear that over there is your base rotation and over there are your extra skills for advanced game play, this could make things a lot more comprehensible (and less daunting) for casual players while allowing the dev team to design classes in complex manners without scaring off 95% of their player base.


Yes, this is the right game for me. Despite these points of contentions I still enjoy immersing myself in this world and I am hyped for Endwalker. But that doesn't mean I can't be dissatisfied with certain core aspects of the game.

[muzickmage]

I dunno about the whole attitude (not just from OP; I mean in general) about "they should change their menu".

What do I mean? Well, McDonalds sells Big Macs, right? If you like a Big Mac, you might eat it twice, three times or a hundred times. Sooner or later, though, you might get tired of eating Big Macs. That extra bread in the middle is starting to bug me. The tangy sauce is the same amount of 'tangy' since day one. The meat patties don't reach the edge of the bun.

Do you:

A) Write a diatribe on how Big Macs should be changed for those with evolving taste, despite the fact that a million people around you enjoy the current, 2021 Big Mac; or
B) Pick something else off the menu, or even find a different place to eat.

The fact that people spend time doing "A" doesn't make sense to me. This game ain't like castor oil. Millions of others enjoy it, all day every day.

If Big Mac sales fell to zero, I could see people saying, "...well duh, make the patties bigger!" But the Big Mac sells well. FFXIV sells well.

Instead of writing a diatribe on how the Big Mac should change to fit certain tastes, pick something else off the menu or if that doesn't cut it, find somewhere else to eat!

Good luck.

On the surface that may sound like a fair argument, however, what you failed to also point out in your example is the fact that we don't have to buy big macs at all. We can go down the street and buy a whopper from Burger King instead. Big Macs are an option we can have, or walk away from at any time.

Do we have that same option and freedom of decision when it comes to dungeons? Or are they forced on us during basic gameplay? If we had the same freedom to use, or not use, dungeons then maybe I could agree with your example.

So basically what SE is telling us is... we have to eat the big macs whether we like it or not. Is the sauce bland? Is the bread dry? Too bad. This is how its served... and we have to eat it.

The OP is just simply saying... continue giving us the big macs. I have no problem with that. I'm just asking that you put some salt, and maybe a sprinkle of pepper in the sauce. If we don't have the option to walk away from the dungeons... then at least make them more fun to use.

[ssunny2008]

snip

I really love such a stupid argumentation. How about McDonalds just offers more or different variations?

The FF14 formula hasn´t changed for decades, it just came with many dumbdowns and less content per addon. Just because a game sells well and you guys are fine with braindead grind, doesn´t mean that the came can´t or shouldn´t evolve.
The gameplay isn´t even FF´s big sell-point. It has the advantage to be a huge thing on Playstation and obviously caters to all the "cuties" and "UwU" - player out there. Such guys and girls won´t even mind about better or different gameplay that much for sure. All they need are some animations, glam and Limsa Lominsa. On top there isn´t much of a competition in JP or the west since the most other MMORPG´s are just F2P asian grinders or hard niche content. FF14, SWTOR and WoW as tab-target trinity games with abo features has they´re playerbase.

[muzickmage]

I think part of the issue might be SE's struggle to have FFXIV remain a MMORPG type of game. Now right away that might seem like a crazy thing to suggest. FFXIV struggling to be a MMORPG... what a stupid thing to say right?

But, if you take a minute to think about it, the only variable in the FFXIV game that really makes it MMORPG is..... the dungeons. The dungeons are the only activites in FFXIV that require group play. Everything else you can petty much do solo.

Sure, there's the chat boards, and the sharing of mounts amongst friends, and, lets not forget the market board idea the brings people together. Those are MMORPG variables as well. But when we think of MMORPG type of gaming the one idea that's usually at the top of the list is the dungeon/group fights.

This is where SE seems to be losing control when it comes to FFXIV. Or at the very least, there's a massive inbalance that's very noticable.

To maintain the MMORPG type of gameplay SE forces us to use the dungeons (as groups). They insert the dungeons into the MSQ so we have no choice use them, and even put ideas such as the tomes in them so we have to practically spam dungeons to get the gear from vendors. While at the same time, SE tries to keep the game easy enough to play for those who are labeled as "casual" players. And this is where the problem begins.

SE is stuck between (a) forcing the dungeons on us (as groups) to maintain a MMORPG style of genre and (b) having the game so dumbed down that we can, to some degree, solo them with a good leveled tank. SE then had to toss in a fail safe to fix the problem they created for themselves, and strip solo players of earning XP, Gil, and Tomes when soloing dungeons.

What we end up with is......

.... New players, overwhelmed by this new world of dungeon play, want to eplore, take their time, and learn about these new places.

..... Veterans are bored with these dungeons and just want to rush through them becaue SE has made them play them so many times that they are almost ready to scream.

..... Gamers are hungry for content that stimulates them in a way that makes them feel like they are actually playing a game, and earning their way from point A to point B.

And then there's people who wonder why things need to change at all.

[ssunny2008]

snip

Funfact... in Shadowbringers you´re able to solo any dungeon together with Thancred, Alisae and Co. and as far as i know they want to continue with it. This means, that the game is going to become a solo RPG next to Raids. (Maybe Raids will become playable with such allies in the future too since a bunch of ppl already beg for it.)

Don´t know what´s the point to have a MMO when everything is going to be solo-content anyway.

[Leigaon]

Just some brainstorming and examples of other games too.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5678267

And about the rewards, what is wrong to follow the standard progress system of any MMORPG? Imo any loot is irrelevant and that one pet each dungeon isn´t something special. There is a rarity system, why not making use of it as any other game does? Noone knows..

Nothing in general wrong with following some of the examples from other games if it works. Thanks for the link to your example to read through. Anyways best of luck and keep on!

[Payadopa]

I dunno about the whole attitude (not just from OP; I mean in general) about "they should change their menu".

What do I mean? Well, McDonalds sells Big Macs, right? If you like a Big Mac, you might eat it twice, three times or a hundred times. Sooner or later, though, you might get tired of eating Big Macs. That extra bread in the middle is starting to bug me. The tangy sauce is the same amount of 'tangy' since day one. The meat patties don't reach the edge of the bun.

Do you:

A) Write a diatribe on how Big Macs should be changed for those with evolving taste, despite the fact that a million people around you enjoy the current, 2021 Big Mac; or
B) Pick something else off the menu, or even find a different place to eat.

The fact that people spend time doing "A" doesn't make sense to me. This game ain't like castor oil. Millions of others enjoy it, all day every day.

If Big Mac sales fell to zero, I could see people saying, "...well duh, make the patties bigger!" But the Big Mac sells well. FFXIV sells well.

Instead of writing a diatribe on how the Big Mac should change to fit certain tastes, pick something else off the menu or if that doesn't cut it, find somewhere else to eat!

Good luck.

Thing is, dungeons are boring.

Games are designed to entertain. Food is there to fill me. Dungeons right now don't entertain. Apart from the EXP and gear they are a complete waste of time after you've seen them once.

And I think I said it before somewhere, but something is wrong with your battle system if me and my friends actively stand in AoEs just to be challenged even a little bit.

As a result of this philosophy I don't do DF anymore. As a tank/healer it's even more mind-numbingly boring. I don't play games to be bored.

[Payadopa]

I really love such a stupid argumentation. How about McDonalds just offers more or different variations?

The FF14 formula hasn´t changed for decades, it just came with many dumbdowns and less content per addon. Just because a game sells well and you guys are fine with braindead grind, doesn´t mean that the came can´t or shouldn´t evolve.
The gameplay isn´t even FF´s big sell-point. It has the advantage to be a huge thing on Playstation and obviously caters to all the "cuties" and "UwU" - player out there. Such guys and girls won´t even mind about better or different gameplay that much for sure. All they need are some animations, glam and Limsa Lominsa. On top there isn´t much of a competition in JP or the west since the most other MMORPG´s are just F2P asian grinders or hard niche content. FF14, SWTOR and WoW as tab-target trinity games with abo features has they´re playerbase.

That's pretty spot-on. To me it feels like more and more core stuff gets taken away.

[Asta_Umbra]

I haven't faced the challenge issue yet, but I'm noticing how some people are finding braindead content hard, which is quite humorous personally (I will even chip in to say I find myself in that situation too but end up learning from it, which is what I think people have forgotten, being the learning)

Can say I'm noticing the lackluster in dungeons but I don't expect them to be hard since they are dungeons imo, but do agree that some idea of like savage content or as Jirah said, adding like a labyrinth style of a dungeon be it old or new would be fun and challenging, maybe like a combination of both the normal and hard variants. Loot will also include old but new drops too, with old drops being the same rates and the new ones being a little harder to get. Maybe an idea to add a specific minion or mount within that content would be of interest too. I'd say something like having 1-3 version of this content per expansion/patch set would be engaging, especially iirc Yoshida wanted to make 4 man content harder or sth else in the future.

[Asta_Umbra]

Also for burnout claims, they make no sense if you come back after a break and notice the same issues, which ties in with another issue of players reasoning against points they make towards, which is long term thinking.

Edit: grammar