Astral Fire/Umbral Ice timers are actually bad mechanics at a meta level.

[DarkZeroUnit]

im fine with the timer's length, but the issue if have with it is it counts down no matter what. i wish it pauses during boss transitions.

with it going passive i guess its moot now since it available as soon as a fire or ice spell is cast

[Mikey_R]

You probably wouldn't be able to triplecast fire 3, it would still cost an arm and a leg and it's still one of the lower DPS things you can do in your AF3 rotation.

They didn't say to Triplecast on Fire 3, they were on about weaving windows where, you currently use Fire 3, use Triplecast, then use Fire 4, with a Swiftcast thrown in so that you can get 4 instant cast Fire 4s before you need to refresh AF3 with Fire. This is going to be a DPS gain as Fire 4 has a longer cast time than GCD cooldown, so anything you can do to get Fire 4 to be at or under the GCD timer is going to be a DPS gain.

As for the idea of using Umbral Hearts as your resource to use Fire 4, how dies that make sense? If you have something that allows the use of something else, that something needs to fit thematically with what you are trying to achieve. Using Blizzard 4 to get Umbral Hearts to allow the use of Fire 4 just doesn't feel right thematically. Currently, Umbral Hearts bring the MP cost of Fire spells to their base MP cost, as if they don't have the AF3 MP penalty, which makes sense.

If you really wanted to get rid of UI/AF timers, you essentially wouldn't need to reset the timer, so why have something that does? Make Fire 1 upgrade to Fire 4, Blizzard 1 upgrade to Blizzard 4. Umbral Hearts can still reduce the MP cost and you essentially have the same job but without the Fire 1 in the middle of the AF phase. When you get Paradox, it could serve 2 purposes depending on whether you are in AF or UI. When in AF, it could give you Umbral Hearts, which allows more uses of Fire 4 in AF and therefore more damage. In UI, it could give a buff that the next Blizzard 4 could have a damage boost equal to the AF3 buff.

So, a full loop (assuming mid fight) would look something like:

B3 > Para > B4 > F3 > F4 > F4 > F4 > Para > F4 > F4 > F4 > F4 > F4 > Des repeat, weaving in Thunder/Xeno where appropriate.

If you want to worry about MP values, using current MP costs:
6 UH F4 = 4800
2 F4 = 3200
1 Despair = 800
1 Paradox = 800

That is a total of 9600 MP, which does also leave enough for a Thunder 3 cast if needed. Of course, MP values can also be changed if needed.

I would say this solution fits better thematically. Your UH still make sense and with Paradox being a mix of Fire and Ice, it grants the Ice Effect in Fire and the Fire effect in Ice, which also follows on it's namesake.

Granted, there could be issues I haven't thought of (not a BLM main, just use it to casually go through dungeons) but to me, this would make better use of the timer removal than trying to pigeon hole a limited number of Fire 4s just because that is what we do now.

[Taranok]

They didn't say to Triplecast on Fire 3, they were on about weaving windows where, you currently use Fire 3, use Triplecast, then use Fire 4, with a Swiftcast thrown in so that you can get 4 instant cast Fire 4s before you need to refresh AF3 with Fire. This is going to be a DPS gain as Fire 4 has a longer cast time than GCD cooldown, so anything you can do to get Fire 4 to be at or under the GCD timer is going to be a DPS gain.

As for the idea of using Umbral Hearts as your resource to use Fire 4, how dies that make sense? If you have something that allows the use of something else, that something needs to fit thematically with what you are trying to achieve. Using Blizzard 4 to get Umbral Hearts to allow the use of Fire 4 just doesn't feel right thematically. Currently, Umbral Hearts bring the MP cost of Fire spells to their base MP cost, as if they don't have the AF3 MP penalty, which makes sense.

If you really wanted to get rid of UI/AF timers, you essentially wouldn't need to reset the timer, so why have something that does? Make Fire 1 upgrade to Fire 4, Blizzard 1 upgrade to Blizzard 4. Umbral Hearts can still reduce the MP cost and you essentially have the same job but without the Fire 1 in the middle of the AF phase. When you get Paradox, it could serve 2 purposes depending on whether you are in AF or UI. When in AF, it could give you Umbral Hearts, which allows more uses of Fire 4 in AF and therefore more damage. In UI, it could give a buff that the next Blizzard 4 could have a damage boost equal to the AF3 buff.

So, a full loop (assuming mid fight) would look something like:

B3 > Para > B4 > F3 > F4 > F4 > F4 > Para > F4 > F4 > F4 > F4 > F4 > Des repeat, weaving in Thunder/Xeno where appropriate.

If you want to worry about MP values, using current MP costs:
6 UH F4 = 4800
2 F4 = 3200
1 Despair = 800
1 Paradox = 800

That is a total of 9600 MP, which does also leave enough for a Thunder 3 cast if needed. Of course, MP values can also be changed if needed.

I would say this solution fits better thematically. Your UH still make sense and with Paradox being a mix of Fire and Ice, it grants the Ice Effect in Fire and the Fire effect in Ice, which also follows on it's namesake.

Granted, there could be issues I haven't thought of (not a BLM main, just use it to casually go through dungeons) but to me, this would make better use of the timer removal than trying to pigeon hole a limited number of Fire 4s just because that is what we do now.

I'll counter your question with another question. "Why have 3 core base combos for Samurai?" Sometimes mechanics exist to give a different texture to a class. If it doesn't thematically fit, we can alter the name of it. We could say the lore is that, without proper preparation, casting fire 4 would drain you of aether and kill you. These are superficial concerns to justify a rotation, just as there were similar superficial concerns to justify Arcanist getting an egi. Sometimes the lore is there to back up the core design.

You use these mechanics because the devs want a certain texture to the class. That texture demands certain considerations to structure it. Timers are the current structure, but it's a bad structure. Using fire 1 is to break up the cadence and structure of the AF3 rotation. Or to put it another way, every summoner complained about chaincasting ruin 3 forever. We wouldn't want that on BLM.

As for upgrading, since the core rotation (6 fire 4s, 1 fire 1/paradox, 1 despair) is what we want to maintain, I'd actually start upgrading at level 35. Fire 3 and blizzard 3 function as fire 4/blizzard 4 at level 35, at 60 they both upgrade: fire/blizzard 1 into 3, and fire/blizzard 3 into 4. This compresses buttons, removes largely awful abilities, and we still aren't restructuring the classes core rotation beyond basically using fire 1 and 3 as 1 ability which is...a loss but not especially a big one. The disadvantage is it does simplify the rotation a tiny bit. The advantage is we can give the core class rotation literally at level 35, fixing a major problem of the class: Its uneven leveling experience with a bait and switch at level 60, fixing another core design problem.

[Taranok]

im fine with the timer's length, but the issue if have with it is it counts down no matter what. i wish it pauses during boss transitions.

with it going passive i guess its moot now since it available as soon as a fire or ice spell is cast

The problem is it's not moot. AF/UI timers still exist, and Enochian will still drop if you let it cancel. Source.

This is also why anyone saying enochian is a trait somehow is simplifying the class really doesn't know what they're talking about. It's removing a button and removing a fourth layer of punishment: Dropping AF/UI, casting Enochian, and then dropping AF/UI again within the Enochian cooldown. Even low skill players struggle to hit this specific problem outside of like, dying twice in a row or what have you. And at that point, the literal act of dying is a worse problem than your rotation being thrown to complete chaos.

[StarfallAssassin]

BLM is the most well designed job in the game currently, and the skill floor is already being considerably lowered with the removal of enochian. Why do people want BLM neutered so badly? Making the most of your AF timer is half the fun.

in what way would it neuter the class?? genuinely curious

[Taranok]

BLM is the most well designed job in the game currently

Scathe, Blizzard 1, Fire 2, Blizzard 2, and sleep all would like a word with you. Sure, 2 of those are being fixed (B/F2), the third one is being turned into a problem for every caster (Sleep). What about Scathe and Blizzard 1? You can just cast Paradox in UI with Fire 1 anyways so there is no reason to keep it on your bar outside of being downleveled.

Oh right, lucid dreaming. Yeah, that's also dead on BLM. So many buttons, so many useless buttons. 10/10 best designed class.

[zcrash970]

BLM is the most well designed job in the game currently, and the skill floor is already being considerably lowered with the removal of enochian. Why do people want BLM neutered so badly? Making the most of your AF timer is half the fun.

Honestly I can't believe I'm about to say this but....
They can't git gud

[zcrash970]

Scathe, Blizzard 1, Fire 2, Blizzard 2, and sleep all would like a word with you. Sure, 2 of those are being fixed (B/F2), the third one is being turned into a problem for every caster (Sleep). What about Scathe and Blizzard 1? You can just cast Paradox in UI with Fire 1 anyways so there is no reason to keep it on your bar outside of being downleveled.

Oh right, lucid dreaming. Yeah, that's also dead on BLM. So many buttons, so many useless buttons. 10/10 best designed class.

I agree with you on scathe. That it needs to be removed.
But sleep was once upon a time was useful and blizz2 and fire2 are becoming useful in 6.0.

Blizzard is there for low level or if massively screwed up in a fight.

Sleep is a role action now.
Lucid dreaming isn't really useful for any of casters unless a smn/rdm is rezzing or dying

BLM is pretty much the community agreed upon best designed class because everything you need flows together, and when expertly played, has an answer for every situation. Great recovery on death as well

[VentVanitas]

snip

Sharpcast isn't underwhelming. It's a pretty fun cooldown to optimise. You have to decide whether getting Firestarter or Thundercloud is more important in that moment on the spot. I enjoy that decision making on BLM and reworking/removing it for a skill just to make Fire 1 instant would sure, amount to generally the same thing, but it removes the fun of having to choose between Fire 3 and Thunder 3. Without timers to facilitate those conundrums, you'd just be choosing whatever's stronger. If I chose Thundercloud over Firestarter and drop Enochian or lost a Fire 4 then... oh well, that's my own fault for not planning it out properly, not the job's fault.

If you want a stress free caster then go play RDM or something, dude.

[Taranok]

I agree with you on scathe. That it needs to be removed.
But sleep was once upon a time was useful and blizz2 and fire2 are becoming useful in 6.0.

Blizzard is there for low level or if massively screwed up in a fight.

Sleep is a role action now.
Lucid dreaming isn't really useful for any of casters unless a smn/rdm is rezzing or dying

BLM is pretty much the community agreed upon best designed class because everything you need flows together, and when expertly played, has an answer for every situation. Great recovery on death as well

It's community agreed upon best because the core rotation is fine, but that doesn't mean BLM doesn't have problems. Scathe is the ultimate proof that the classes ARR design hasn't been touched at all despite being left behind a long time ago. And AF/UI timers are part of the core design, just like greased lightning was. And just light greased lightning, it massively raises the skill floor of the class without really impacting the skill ceiling. And just like greased lightning, the class will be a lot better with its removal.

Sharpcast isn't underwhelming. It's a pretty fun cooldown to optimise. You have to decide whether getting Firestarter or Thundercloud is more important in that moment on the spot. I enjoy that decision making on BLM and reworking/removing it for a skill just to make Fire 1 instant would sure, amount to generally the same thing, but it removes the fun of having to choose between Fire 3 and Thunder 3. Without timers to facilitate those conundrums, you'd just be choosing whatever's stronger. If I chose Thundercloud over Firestarter and drop Enochian or lost a Fire 4 then... oh well, that's my own fault for not planning it out properly, not the job's fault.

If you want a stress free caster then go play RDM or something, dude.

I would, but RDM is very stressful for me. I actually am really good in general on BLM, it's my strongest class by a pretty wide mile. Generally the only reason I don't play it is because I get bored of it, but the omnipresent anxiety of AF/UI timers are definitely something I enjoy not dealing with. It is a reason I stop playing the class, not a reason I come back to it. I rarely drop timers. As in I have to take a break from the class for months to even be at risk of dropping timers. This is because at moderate-high skill levels, the timers offer literally nothing of value to the rotation. It's purely a skill floor mechanic. Once you've dealt with it, you basically don't deal with it again until you really scuff your rotation and cadence. Which is the entire, provable reason it's awful. It's a complete non-issue, except when you're learning the class and realize it will completely trample on your rotation.

Also, with the exception of specific strategic withholding of sharpcast, the agreed upon best way to use it is literally on cooldown at the nearest double weave window. It's very, very underwhelming. Other classes press an oGCD and either can do something amazing, like RDM's manafication, which massively accelerates their rotation (like Ley Lines for BLM), or they just flat get more damage. BLM gets to...guarantee a badly designed part of the class will magically do what it says it will randomly do, but only after already doing it. You just pop it on cooldown when you safely can. If you want you just constantly hold it for AF phase, or T3. The most interesting thing it does is let you do a 4-4-1-4-4-3-4-4-despair rotation in AF, which is an interesting difference compared to the standard 4-4-4-1-4-4-4-despair rotation.

And to iterate, again. Monk got a massive boon by removing greased lightning. Sure, the class was made a lot easier in the short term due to the skill floor being dropped out, but then they could start doing wilder things with its rotation, such as the change to perfect balance. The timer rotation is shackling the class just as much as it's making it harder to learn the class for new players.

I am speaking of this from a position of actually doing well on the class, not a position of being a bad black mage. I normally ignore AF/UI because I normally don't scuff rotations. I memorize positioning on every boss when I take the class into savage. Short of really high intensity movement fights like certain sections of E4S, I always can perform well in my static group. Since there's no objective measure of showing how well I can do, all I can use is things like threat bars, where I'm almost always the first DPS targeted after a tank dies in an alliance fight, and other measures along those lines. When I say you could delete AF/UI timers and 99% of the time I wouldn't notice it, I'm speaking truthfully.

They add nothing to the class at the high end, but take away a lot of the class from the low end while also shackling the classes rotation by forcing the devs to always design around these awful timers. Their inclusion allows for really awkward and silly openers and rotations, such as JP and hypermeme. Neither of which are healthy for a class to have and both of which the devs are trying to fix by making Paradox your second best PPS spell of the AF phase to force BLMs who want to push DPS to actually do the intended rotation. Such a surprising thought.

All of this points to the devs not liking how freeform the timers are, yet also shows how meaningless it is when played normally when you meet the skill floor requirement. And again, 99% of the time, I literally would not notice if AF/UI timers were removed. Why should the class have a mechanic that's largely ignored? Because that's exactly what the timers actually are, while also increasing stress and not being a mandatory part of the rotation, because you can structure it otherwise.