Dark Knight Change discussion

[TheMightyMollusk]

I'd just like it to play more like its own thing, rather than edgy warrior.

[Endariel]

I'd just like it to play more like its own thing, rather than edgy warrior.

Man, i did not particularly like "dark arts" dark "dark arts" arts in SB, but now I kinda want it back

[Liam_Harper]

I disagree with your points on TBN. It works now so it will work in EW. In ShB you use TBN if it will break. If it's not breaking, you aren't taking enough damage, so you can use % mitigation instead like Shadow Wall.

Giving DRK a regen (beyond Souleater) would not be balanced because TBN is very powerful and makes some content soloable the way self-heals allow on other tanks.

TBN is extremely overrated. It has been the justifying reason for DRK being inferior for too long. Someone always came along with "but we have the best mitigation ability in the game!". It's certainly a strong skill, but it's not enough to carry a class.

All the other tanks are getting their TBN equivalent massively buffed. Holy Sheltron, Bloodwhetting and Heart of Corundum are all incredibly good. They don't consume or rely on your main dps resource at all and there is no penalty if they don't break, leaving TBN as the odd one out apart from a slightly shorter recast time, which is really unnecessary because no content requires you blow TBN every 15 sec (and if you did, you wouldn't pop half of them).

On top of their arguably more useful TBN's, the other tanks will have better self heals in Endwalker too. DRK has been left behind.

[Jeeqbit]

All the other tanks are getting their TBN equivalent massively buffed. Holy Sheltron, Bloodwhetting and Heart of Corundum are all incredibly good. They don't consume or rely on your main dps resource at all and there is no penalty if they don't break, leaving TBN as the odd one out apart from a slightly shorter recast time, which is really unnecessary because no content requires you blow TBN every 15 sec (and if you did, you wouldn't pop half of them).

On top of their arguably more useful TBN's, the other tanks will have better self heals in Endwalker too. DRK has been left behind.

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

[Colt47]

PLD needed the extra self-heals because it has been the one tank that, after mitigation and self-heals, had the lowest health even using Sheltron regularly, unless they used Clemency which is not done by most tanks because it's a GCD.

GNB needed these extra heals to be on the same level as the other tanks, because although a bit better than PLD in a party, it has been one of the hardest tanks to solo on. A PLD can self-heal as much as it likes, a WAR can use its abundance of self-heals including its combo and 3 healing abilities, a DRK can TBN endlessly, but for GNB to do the same it would have to spam Keen Edge and Brutal Shell, denting the damage a lot. Aurora doesn't compare to a GCD heal, 3 healing abilities or a 25% health shield on a 15 sec cooldown.

Bloodwhetting on WAR is a bit of a nerf. While in ShB you can combine Nascent Flash with Fell Cleaves or Inner Chaos for 590 or 920 potency, in EW it will be a fixed 400 potency heal which is still lower than the new potency of those actions. It will probably even out though because sometimes those actions are not available. Shake It Off will heal and Bloodwhetting reduces damage, so may make up for it a bit too.

As a warrior main I'm a little bothered by the nerf to self heals. We'll have to see how it plays out in the game but I'm ready to jump ship to paladin or Gunbreaker if it looks like Warrior is falling behind. I'm actually worried about warrior AND dark knight.

[Crimsonrock]

Because, TBN is the only mitigation DK have beside rampart and shadow wall, reprisal and a not very helpful new ability oblation, which other tank also had (WAR is Thrill of Battle instead 30% mitigation) plus a new mitigation ability with same effect but with 3 or 4 powerful additional effect. Outside TBN, I can only rely on those. I usually only use TBN at tank bluster cause I can't fully read the boss mechanics changing timing, is awkward if you use TBN to absorb normal attack (and shield didn't break in time) and unable to pop for the tank bluster which come just after your TBN faded away (where TBN is still in cooldown) plus dps lose also.

You fine with it, maybe cause you can accurately read the boss mechanics changing timing, but not me. So I only use if for tank bluster, and I'm vulnerable if other mitigation still in cooldown cause DK had the less self healing compare to other tank (GNB gain 2 charge of self regen in EW). You still fine tanking using DK and compete with other tanks in SHB, but will highly no be a thing once EW release with the changes of other tanks. Souleater doesn't heal a lot, is roughly 10% of health every 7 to 7.5 second (doesn't include the time you pop bloodspiller and Quietus instead of souleater combo). And abssyal drain only heal a lot if you pulling a huge pack plus 1 min cd, which less effective while fighting dungeon/trial/raid boss.

And we don't very know how the boss mechanics going to be in EW (especially when other tank receive decent buff for EW). The boss would quite likely be harder than SHB. I can only solo tank some of the bosses in Stormblood without a healer (yes I weak). Don't even think about solo tanking SHB dungeon bosses. And take a look of how of the self healing other tank going to received in EW.

The OGCD AOE is just a suggestion for the Dark Arts design. Is fine if you don't like it. And I highly hope they change the cooldown to 30 sec (with less mana regen if 600MP every 30 sec consider too op)

[Crimsonrock]

Why attach mitigation to your burst window?
Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to be more in control of my mitigation, and not just become arbitrarily tankier during a certain part of my rotation.




It's so weak... I don't understand.
It feels like a holdover from the Dark Arts days and I'm surprised when we lost the ability to buff it that it wasn't replaced with a buffed version.
I totally agree. An upgrade would be good.

We classified it as a burst window since is only 10 second for popping free bloodspiller and Quietus, then the only thing we do is using these two as much as we can before the time runs out, therefore becoming a burst window. But since Delirium going to change to 3 stack that can use anytime within 30 sec in EW instead of popping as much as you can within 10 second, why not make use of it by adding additional self effect like a shield or something for extra mitigation as it works within 30 sec since other tank going to have more mitigation than DK in EW if this doesn't change.

[Crimsonrock]

I disagree with your points on TBN. It works now so it will work in EW. In ShB you use TBN if it will break. If it's not breaking, you aren't taking enough damage, so you can use % mitigation instead like Shadow Wall.

Giving DRK a regen (beyond Souleater) would not be balanced because TBN is very powerful and makes some content soloable the way self-heals allow on other tanks.

For OGCD aoe, DRK already has Flood of Shadow and many other aoe abilities, so it doesn't need the OGCD aoe the other tanks got.

Abyssal Drain is supposed to take health from each enemy, so it can heal you to full if there are lots of enemies.

Because, TBN is the only mitigation DK have beside rampart and shadow wall, reprisal and a not very helpful new ability oblation, which other tank also had (WAR is Thrill of Battle instead 30% mitigation) plus a new mitigation ability with same effect but with 3 or 4 powerful additional effect. Outside TBN, I can only rely on those. I usually only use TBN at tank bluster cause I can't fully read the boss mechanics changing timing, is awkward if you use TBN to absorb normal attack (and shield didn't break in time) and unable to pop for the tank bluster which come just after your TBN faded away (where TBN is still in cooldown) plus dps lose also.

You fine with it, maybe cause you can accurately read the boss mechanics changing timing, but not me. So I only use if for tank bluster, and I'm vulnerable if other mitigation still in cooldown cause DK had the less self healing compare to other tank (GNB gain 2 charge of self regen in EW). You still fine tanking using DK and compete with other tanks in SHB, but will highly no be a thing once EW release with the changes of other tanks. Souleater doesn't heal a lot, is roughly 10% of health every 7 to 7.5 second (doesn't include the time you pop bloodspiller and Quietus instead of souleater combo). And abssyal drain only heal a lot if you pulling a huge pack plus 1 min cd, which less effective while fighting dungeon/trial/raid boss.

And we don't very know how the boss mechanics going to be in EW (especially when other tank receive decent buff for EW). The boss would quite likely be harder than SHB. I can only solo tank some of the bosses in Stormblood without a healer (yes I weak). Don't even think about solo tanking SHB dungeon bosses. And take a look of how of the self healing other tank going to received in EW.

The OGCD AOE is just a suggestion for the Dark Arts design. Is fine if you don't like it. And I highly hope they change the cooldown to 30 sec (with less mana regen if 600MP every 30 sec consider too op)

[Yeol]

The way %mitigation works is that it gets less effective the more you stack them.
using Rampart will reduce damage by 20%
using Shadow Wall will reduce damage by 30%
using both Rampart and Shadow wall will reduce damage by 44%

Shields on the other hand do not have this disadvantage (As long as they don't overwrite each other).
The best damage reduction is: shield + %mitigation. Which DRK can do with TBN + any %mitigation.

The downside is that TBN comes at a cost (3000 MP). If it doesn't' break, it's a DPS loss for DRK.
If DRK cannot get TBN to break, they will stop using it for said mechanic == DRK has the least %mitigation compared to other tanks after EW updates.

Other tanks can use long CD %mitigation alongside the short CD mitigation which also has added %mitigation after EW.

Migration-wise, this makes DRK the best tank for situations where TBN breaks, but the worst tank if their TBN doesn't break. Really wish they remove the cost on TBN.

[Nihility]

from my perspective dark knight is pretty good just statistically
The Blackest Night was already the best of the short cooldown tank cooldowns. I don't really have developer data but maybe increasing all the other ones was bringing them up to par. shadow wall and rampart are the same as every other tank and dark mind and dark missionary are strong and have a generally shorter cooldown than other tank equivalents and oblation was like here's even more. every other tank got the improvement rolled into their 25s cd, dark knight was the only one that gets to use them together or at different times depending on situation.

The current potencies don't really much either but currently they look to be up there for dps too

My only real problem with dark knight is all the ogc relics of it's original incarnation. Salted Earth, Carve and Spit, Abyssal Drain, Blood Weapon, maybe even more I'm missing
They all kind of suck and they were just altered in a fitting a square peg into a round hole sort of fashion, They also just make the job needlessly over-busy and they keep adding more.

One of the coolest parts of dark knight aesthetic to me was how they are swinging a giant heavy weapon and the main combo shows it. They are actually struggling to maintain balance from the swings. It's a really nice touch
But with this insane flood of OGC dark knights have it's maybe even twitchier than gunbreaker and the animations look ridiculous when constantly broken
Dark Knight should be like reaper is, fairly slow most of the time but every hit has that OOMPH! weight to it

And just a general gripe with all tanks having gap closers being part of dps, simple solution too, minimum range requirement for them to do damage. Can use them whereever you want but if your not far enough they just get you closer. No longer worthwhile to try and force them and they can be used for the utility they're meant for freely