The questions I want EW to answer the most: WHY and HOW was the world sundered?

[Veloran]

It's my belief that the Venat faction summoned Hydaelyn for the purpose of sundering the star explicitly, and that this was done in order remove the Ancient's creation magics from the picture because that is what caused the Final Days, somehow. Specifically I think that in the same way conscious thoughts could alter concepts and produce strange creatures, subconscious thoughts could also effect the process and create some kind of hidden byproduct, which eventually metastasized within the Lifestream as the Sound. And while Zodiark could alter the laws of reality to undo the threat, he couldn't change human nature to prevent it from arising again in the future. Thus Hydaelyn sundered the world and it's souls, preventing living things from using creation magic (hence why in the earliest eras nobody could use magic at all), and in so doing preventing the Sound from reappearing.

This new Final Days appears to be happening as a result of countless Primal summonings (bootleg creation magic) instigated by mass torture, so that would explain how it's being fast-tracked so readily.

[Theodric]

I'm not convinced that Creation magic is to blame in itself. The Sundering has been described as a bad thing and unstable state of existence rather than a good thing - which to me, reads into it being an accident and unintentional aspect of Venat's plan. We also know that the Ancients were essentially the 'default state' of existence on some level. Outside of the Source and the Shards, there are other planets that have not been Sundered that are home to beings who are considered to be extremely powerful - with Midgardsormr and his brood being the most prominent example. It's a little more shaky but there's also the Nier raids with further expand on the existence of other worlds.

Furthermore, the Ancients appeared to take care not to allow their powers to be misused. They didn't simply just bring forth anything and everything into existence to suit their whims or embrace decadence. They looked to the greater whole, debated with one another, considered the benefit to their society in general. The Ancients appeared to have lived in such a state for a long time, so I have my doubts that Creation magic would in itself suddenly become an issue.

Assuming the cause of the Sound is some sort of parasite, it's also entirely possible that it would use whatever means available to it in order to cause chaos. If it somehow ends up being the same force that has threatened and destroyed other worlds then it's a safe bet that Creation magic going awry was simply a side effect rather than a reason to shatter existence into multiple parts.

[Veloran]

The Sundering has been described as a bad thing and unstable state of existence rather than a good thing - which to me, reads into it being an accident and unintentional aspect of Venat's plan.

It may be the current world is considered that way because seven shards have been rejoined and now the world is over halfway reunited. And to clarify I don't think it's accurate to blame creation magic itself, rather that's merely an outlet for impulses and subconscious thoughts shared by all life. Think the same thing that causes the Auspices' aramitama.

Furthermore, the Ancients appeared to take care not to allow their powers to be misused. They didn't simply just bring forth anything and everything into existence to suit their whims or embrace decadence. They looked to the greater whole, debated with one another, considered the benefit to their society in general. The Ancients appeared to have lived in such a state for a long time, so I have my doubts that Creation magic would in itself suddenly become an issue.

Yes, but it seems to me this could be an issue that built up over time and only became apparent once it was too late. Keep in mind that the Ancients themselves recognize this part of human nature and worked to suppress it.

Assuming the cause of the Sound is some sort of parasite, it's also entirely possible that it would use whatever means available to it in order to cause chaos. If it somehow ends up being the same force that has threatened and destroyed other worlds then it's a safe bet that Creation magic going awry was simply a side effect rather than a reason to shatter existence into multiple parts.

I think you misunderstand. In essence I am saying creation magic going awry was effectively just a side effect. However this isn't a side effect that can be easily explained away as the doing of a purely outside force. Basically the Sound siphoning the dark impulses from people's minds is a conscious extension of it's own subconscious birth, and it's killing of the Lifestream and it's destruction of life everywhere is an expression of it's nature as being "inimical to life". For a parallel here - Maybe even a direct connection - Look at Ultima. It's a force of raw death and destruction that was summoned from who-knows-where that people revered as a god because they found that attractive.



Moreover, note Ultima's pose here. It's the selfsame one shared by Hydaelyn and Zodiark. And Ultima is effectively a parasite, of a sort, just as Lahabrea insisted Hydaelyn was. A parasite that feeds on people's dreams and impulses. All three even seemingly produce auracite, and just like Ultima the auracite that Lahabrea said was a sliver of his god's power produced incredible destruction. There's clearly a connection here.

[Lauront]

On Ultima, all I will say is that it may be that the upper body was superimposed over the lower body. The idea of the deity, with the crossed hands (and on the statue, the double halo) might relate to an earlier conception divinity (maybe surviving via the collective unconscious of the Lifestream like so many other things), that the creature assumed as the reverence born out of fear of it turned it into a primal. Her statue description is intriguing, given the description of her powers... unfurling the very threads of Creation, sounds like something for which you'd need to restore the star's laws, if it were subjected to such an attack. So mayhap there is some tie between her (or the type of being she is) and the Final Days. Regarding Ultima the spell, the Heart of Sabik is remarked upon in a separate scene as a black auracite in the JP version, and I speculate it held the power it did because it is essentially a fragment of Zodiark's crystal "battery" and consequently, very aether-rich.

As to what the ultimate cause of the sound was? Who can say, but nonetheless I find it intriguing that someone has both the motive and know-how to reproduce the Final Days more or less on command, with or without creation magicks. I'm fairly convinced her side was led to believe creation magicks were the issue, possibly from a position of already being concerned about Zodiark's power, which only emboldened their conviction when the plan to restore the sacrificed ancients materialised (on the premise that the "new life" may have lacked aptitude for creation magicks and therefore have been preferred.) Still, all speculation. I'll lay my cards on the table and say I am hoping for something further (over and above mere subconscious anxiety build up) to have been at the root of it all, waiting for an opportune time (and a willing abettor) to exploit their anxieties and thus derail their creation magicks and with that, the star. Especially if dealt with along similar lines as IX's storyline.

The other thing is, her faction seemed resolved that Zodiark was not a permanent solution - pent up anxiety manifesting aetherically is touched upon in the DNC quests. It is essentially a solvable problem, and by means far less impressive than Zodiark. I'd consider this fairly trivial for a primal installed within the star, on the order of Zodiark's power and capabilities (able to jumpstart the dying star and its aetheric laws back into functioning), to prevent from recurring - this does not mean they couldn't resort to such an explanation, but it does render it a bit less convincing to me as to why he could not solve that issue from causing a recurrence. On the other hand, such a fundamental concern may have never registered with her group and mayhap they wanted their people to simply move on and start anew, rather than restore the sacrificed, and to that end perhaps she had a plan to wipe away memory of it all, as souls were reborn or manifested from within the Underworld... that'd line up with Elidibus's claims about her and her summoners' intentions in the 5.0 epilogue, i.e. for memory of the ancients to be forgotten. I do think it's possible they thought that the creation magicks were to blame, but as to whether that (or subconscious byproducts of it) was the fundamental cause? Remains to be seen and I think there's quite a few plot elements that'd make it rather questionable.

[Katie_Kitty]

They weren’t outright fanatics though lol. We’re literally shown that. They even said in a recent interview a primal can dictate how tempered they make their followers and in the ascians case it clearly wasn’t very strong of a tempering considering half of the convocation was opposed to the sacrifices at first and this was post tempering. Read the short stories.

Lahabrea was most definitely a fanatic. Elidibus didn't even remember what he was fighting for and was still driven to suicide-by-WoL in attempting to accomplish it. Emet-Selch seemed mostly normal, but he even himself in dialogue admitted to being tempered.

[EaraGrace]

I feel as if were missing the obvious answers in favor of more complicated ones.

The recorded conversation makes it clear what the followers of Venat thought.

Venat: Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren?

If so, I see no further reason to demur.

Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check.

Urianger himself says it plainly right after the recording ends.

Urianger: For a certainty, Emet-Selch never uttered the name, speak though he did of the schism which Zodiark's advent wrought upon mankind.
Some were of the viewpoint that His power must needs be restrained, and to that end did they call forth She who would serve as His shackles.

Now, let it be clear I'm not saying that it's impossible for their to be other reasons and motivations, but as it stands this is the reason that's stressed in the dialogue so far.

And it makes sense. By this point Zodiark has halted the Final Days, and repaired the damage to the world, but at the cost of a vast amount of souls as well tempering of Convocation. These same tempered individuals then announce to sacrifice even more souls, specifically new life that they could use to replace the sacrificed souls. Not only is the sacrifice morally abhorrent, its a plan that could further empower Zodiark. And once again, its being suggested by a group of leaders who are knowingly tempered by Him. Thus a way to stop Zodiark is needed, one that would allow them to defeat a much more powerful being, while also not directly damaging or destroying it as its existence is now tied to the world itself. Thus, Sundering magic.

On Creation Magic

There is one big reason I doubt that halting creation magic was a reason for the Sundering.

Creation magicks are still a thing, and is in fact something the few surviving Ancients have used to their own benefit since. We wouldn't have the Primals after all if that wasn't the case! Now I will admit that Venat hasn't directly instructed anyone in the art of summoning, but she has shown no resistance (at least as far as we've seen) to aiding those who used it like Ysayle, so long as it isn't done with the intention of draining her aether. If she was moved to sunder existence to prevent its proliferation, how willing do we think she'd be to allow her agents to use said power, in any circumstance? This doesn't seem logical. Possible, but highly unlikely in my view.

Also, if the Sound was the subconscious of the living given form through their powerful magic, i just I wanna say that while the individual power of creation is diminished, they’re still remains more than enough strength to do incredible acts of creation. Sundering may weaken and thus delay the Final Days, but it wouldn’t permanently halt it. And I don’t believe at all the followers of Venat would miss that.

[ElysiumDragon]

My own speculation is that the summoning of Zodiark didn't actually fix the issue with creation magicks, and that Hydaelyn was created with the explicit intention of Sundering the world, to prevent these magicks from ever being used again.

[GoldStarz]

Actually, we do.

If the Convocation didn't have stark support for Zodiark, then the population wouldn't have sacrificed twice to him. They had wide support, as most governments do during crisis or even perceived crisis. They continued having support after the fact due to being deemed the wisest and most learned by most of the Ancients of their nation(and by Through His Eyes short, most powerful). Not too mention actually having saved and restored the world through their own ingenuity, and by sacrificing one of their own members to do it. This all on top of a promise that they could restore the Amaurotine society to the before times, eventually. And in those before times we learn from side Amaurotine street talk dialogue that there have been previous calamities that the Convocation saved their people from.

So it's the bulk of what's left of Amaurotine society vs. a small group of dissenters who openly admit they are the much smaller group(who also admit they will be forever reviled for their actions). While the exact numbers are unclear, no amount of mental handstands are going to incline that fact favorably towards your assertion. Remember, Team Hydaelyn isn't merely opposing the will of the living at this point as well.

I don't really think this is evidence of that though. Obviously, Zodiark had strong initial support, but that's not proof of prolonged support. Having to go through the first sacrifice is already enough to shake someone faith, but haven't to go through two of them and then have the Convocation start talking about a third, this time with non-consenting parties? I do think that Emet's memory of the Amaurotines is extremely rose-tinted, but if they are as remotely magnanimous as he makes them out to be then surely such a plan would cause masses of people to lose interest or faith in this specific course of action, no?

[KageTokage]

I can't help but feel like the Final Days are somehow connected to the aetherial sea/Lifestream with it being specifically noted as one of the few things even the Ancients lacked understanding and control of.

Additionally, creation magick comes across as dangerously volatile when a stray thought can easily twist the end result, plus souls were randomly getting woven into creations and causing them go berserk. The nonchalant responses of the clerk to the mishaps in Akademia Aynder or that one Ancient's reaction to his concept for a plaything trying to murder you makes it seems like accidents were a pretty routine thing; it's just that the Ancients had no qualms about sacrificing themselves for the greater good so small-scale incidents weren't anything that was considered a very big deal. Though I suppose it's also possible the picture of Ancient society Emet Selch painted was far more idealistic then it was in reality.

[thegreatonemal]

I can't help but feel like the Final Days are somehow connected to the aetherial sea/Lifestream with it being specifically noted as one of the few things even the Ancients lacked understanding and control of.

Additionally, creation magick comes across as dangerously volatile when a stray thought can easily twist the end result, plus souls were randomly getting woven into creations and causing them go berserk. The nonchalant responses of the clerk to the mishaps in Akademia Aynder or that one Ancient's reaction to his concept for a plaything trying to murder you makes it seems like accidents were a pretty routine thing; it's just that the Ancients had no qualms about sacrificing themselves for the greater good so small-scale incidents weren't anything that was considered a very big deal. Though I suppose it's also possible the picture of Ancient society Emet Selch painted was far more idealistic then it was in reality.

He's just biased. This is the same society that was going to leave a inhabited island's population to be killed by a volcanic eruption.