Sage quick mechanics overview

[GrimGale]

I've went over this in depth in a deleted thread, but Toxikon is entirely useless even in AoE. The damage drop off is so severe that it's actually DPS neutral to just lose a GCD cast. If you have no sting and you need to move, you're actually better off just overwriting your Eukrasia Dosis DoT than you are using Eukrasia Diagnosis for a barrier unless you feel like you need that barrier, which will be pretty rare given how plentiful and powerful Sage's OGCD healing is. Even in harder content, I imagine you'd more likely prefer Eukrasia Prognosis for the group barrier if you really need some healing.

Even in AoE it's useless. Get the pre-pull proc off it, but because of the 50% drop off on secondary targets, the damage is just worse than 2 uses of Dyskrasia. The math on Toxikon is just garbage.

Taurochole, Soteria, Krasis, Ixiochole, Haima. All these abilities are better options than to lose a GCD to Eukrasian Diagnosis to apply a barrier. Jeez, another kit that fights itself.

[ty_taurus]

Taurochole, Soteria, Krasis, Ixiochole, Haima. All these abilities are better options than to lose a GCD to Eukrasian Diagnosis to apply a barrier. Jeez, another kit that fights itself.

Literally all they need to do is double the potency to 660 and suddenly, even though it's DPS neutral, you're still getting a heal and barrier out of that which is increasing healer DPS indirectly and thus ultimately something you want to prioritize. Would actually make a significant difference in Sage's playstyle that not only would help in giving veterans more skill expression, but also doesn't pressure casual play in any way.

[GrimGale]

Either that or make it an oGCD. So long as the damage gain is enough to offset the price of the GCD.

[Sighearth]

Literally all they need to do is double the potency to 660 and suddenly, even though it's DPS neutral, you're still getting a heal and barrier out of that which is increasing healer DPS indirectly and thus ultimately something you want to prioritize. Would actually make a significant difference in Sage's playstyle that not only would help in giving veterans more skill expression, but also doesn't pressure casual play in any way.

I don't think it can be dps neutral, if so SGE would have basically free gcd shields (that can be buffed with zoe and etc) + free movement most of the fight. They should do it like ruin 2 is for sch a slight potency loss. Something like 580 potency (80 potency loss) so you can move, weave and have a nice shield but you can't spam it.

[ty_taurus]

I don't think it can be dps neutral, if so SGE would have basically free gcd shields (that can be buffed with zoe and etc) + free movement most of the fight. They should do it like ruin 2 is for sch a slight potency loss. Something like 580 potency (80 potency loss) so you can move, weave and have a nice shield but you can't spam it.

That's not entirely true because in order to get the sting in the first place, the barrier must break. The system was taken directly from the Dark Knight. To explain it briefly, DRK uses their MP on OGCD actions for added damage and maintaining a self DPS buff: Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, both of which costs 3000 MP. They also have The Blackest Night, which is a single-target barrier they can place on themselves or an ally. Since it consumes 3000 MP as well, that means it's a DPS loss on its own, but if the barrier breaks, their next Flood of Shadow or Edge of Shadow is free. Since this is all OGCD, that makes The Blackest Night DPS neutral with a barrier as the cherry on top, but if you use it at the wrong time, the barrier wont' break before the buff timer runs out and you don't get that free FoS/EoS.

In other words, the system rewards well-timed barriers with a DPS return, and the same could be true for Toxikon. Keep in mind you also don't want to overwrite that barrier or you've lost your Adder's Sting before you've gained it, and I imagine Pepsis will also prevent you from gaining a Sting. Eukrasia Diagnosis is also MP expensive. This isn't a big issue now because SCH almost never actually casts Adloquium/Succor, but if you're trying to maximize uptime on barriers for that purpose, it could end up drying your MP up. We can't say this will or won't be a concern yet since we don't know how regularly you'll be able to realistically trigger a String, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now, if we do make it DPS neutral, than that actually opens up a very important door for Sage gameplay in a way where everyone wins. It makes casual play more forgiving because even if you're not using your barriers optimally, you will at least gain some Stings to recoup your lost DPS (even if you don't care about that, it is still benefiting you). Meanwhile more experienced players are now actively looking for opportunities to use a GCD over DPSing which is exactly what so many people want since you have only to gain from a well-timed E. Diagnosis.

This kind of experience is literally what everyone wants, developers included. If they can recognize that and buff the damage, we'll be on a fantastic road forward.

[Sighearth]

That's not entirely true because in order to get the sting in the first place, the barrier must break. The system was taken directly from the Dark Knight. To explain it briefly, DRK uses their MP on OGCD actions for added damage and maintaining a self DPS buff: Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, both of which costs 3000 MP. They also have The Blackest Night, which is a single-target barrier they can place on themselves or an ally. Since it consumes 3000 MP as well, that means it's a DPS loss on its own, but if the barrier breaks, their next Flood of Shadow or Edge of Shadow is free. Since this is all OGCD, that makes The Blackest Night DPS neutral with a barrier as the cherry on top, but if you use it at the wrong time, the barrier wont' break before the buff timer runs out and you don't get that free FoS/EoS.

In other words, the system rewards well-timed barriers with a DPS return, and the same could be true for Toxikon. Keep in mind you also don't want to overwrite that barrier or you've lost your Adder's Sting before you've gained it, and I imagine Pepsis will also prevent you from gaining a Sting. Eukrasia Diagnosis is also MP expensive. This isn't a big issue now because SCH almost never actually casts Adloquium/Succor, but if you're trying to maximize uptime on barriers for that purpose, it could end up drying your MP up. We can't say this will or won't be a concern yet since we don't know how regularly you'll be able to realistically trigger a String, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now, if we do make it DPS neutral, than that actually opens up a very important door for Sage gameplay in a way where everyone wins. It makes casual play more forgiving because even if you're not using your barriers optimally, you will at least gain some Stings to recoup your lost DPS (even if you don't care about that, it is still benefiting you). Meanwhile more experienced players are now actively looking for opportunities to use a GCD over DPSing which is exactly what so many people want since you have only to gain from a well-timed E. Diagnosis.

This kind of experience is literally what everyone wants, developers included. If they can recognize that and buff the damage, we'll be on a fantastic road forward.

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

[inhaledcorn]

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

You realize it's basically impossible to 100% sustain shields due to the mp cost? You learn that pretty quickly on SCH, and that's going to be true on SGE.

[Sighearth]

You realize it's basically impossible to 100% sustain shields due to the mp cost? You learn that pretty quickly on SCH, and that's going to be true on SGE.

Yea realistically you won't have 100% uptime shields ofc. But you only need 3 at the time, as toxicon 2 have 0 mana cost, your shields would cost 1000 - 400 (dosis cost) so to spam shields you would be down 200 mana for every shield.

[Laphicet]

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

[ty_taurus]

Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

Actually he was arguing against the idea making Toxikon DPS neutral, not describing an existing "issue" with it. I brought up how making it neutral would make Sage's gameplay far more fluid and fun, and he fears that if they did make it neutral, it would make Sage's spam barrier on the tank.