Monk Identity and Blitz ?

[VirusOnline]

Additionally, just a personal gripe, removed positionals? For reals, somebody said this in another post but it's absolutely true that they just compromised with the casual monk players that haven't put the effort in that say they have too much positionals. Like either remove all (Which please please please don't do) or remove none, there is nothing wrong with the kit and yeah with the changes there might be new changes which are hard to keep up with, but having something to always go for making every attack have a purpose is what makes Monk fun. Part of the identity for me is the constant moving necessary and having Form2 require no positionals is just a weird unnecessary change. I'm very relieved they didn't remove more though, but none would have been my preferred change in that regard.

I have also played MNK in ARR. It was a brief stay until my permanent return in HW.
The positionals are in my opinion irrelevant. They aren't challenging and often times just a nuance that is at the mercy of the tank and/or boss randomly turning or due to mechanics.
The fact that MNK has as many positionals as it does and we are given two charges of TN sorta makes positionals not even matter. It's time for MNK's identity to change and not just be "that dps that needs positionals on every ability bc that's its identity".

MNK needs to identify as MNK in the same way we play a NIN and know why it's a NIN.

If I had one gripe to add - TS needs to be apart of our class bar the same way the Huton is for NIN.
The new bar is great for showing stance now please add TS. As someone with terribly vision searching for that icon can be quite hard during savage fights.

[ssunny2008]

MNK needs to identify as MNK in the same way we play a NIN and know why it's a NIN.

Don´t know what you´re talking about. The stealth actions which never get used? Or that you stay 95% of the fight behind the boss?
Only Mudra is specific. Ninjutsus is what you expect from a NIN of course as much as i would expect really fast and movement based gameplay from a MNK. I haven´t seen any MMA fighter or similar pugilists which are like "Sry bro, we don´t move today. Let´s clap in our hands instead.".

If you´ve only one positional heavy class, where the whole rotation and even escape skills are based around that, then of course it´s an identity. Both classes are even the only ones with some kind of identity imo. DRG and SAM are completely standard just with animations. Caster differences are "cast - dot - melee combo". And we don´t even need to talk about tank or healer identities.

snip

Just because some aspects are the same thx to the ff lore, doesn´t mean that the games aren´t different. They´re, because games evolve, no matter if it´s for the better or worse.

Imo i can´t even understand, when you like it so much and spread claims like "dark souls" with it, why do you want to get ride of so many "punishing / too hard" mechanics? Why do you want to have more QoL features?

Sounds more like it was your first MMO with that taste of nostalgia. Unexperience is a huge factor in the gameplay-experience, especially when the game isn´t telling you everything. If you would´ve played FF14 first, you would probably be link "Oh soooo cool, MNK yeah, wow that movement!".

[Sqwall]

Imo i can´t even understand, when you like it so much and spread claims like "dark souls" with it, why do you want to get ride of so many "punishing / too hard" mechanics? Why do you want to have more QoL features?

What qualifies as a quality of life improvement is improving that which was poor design initially.

With the current DK > Twin > Demo > Boot > True > Snap > DK > True > Snap > Boot > Twin > Demo. This is 7 movements.

For me the removal of 2 positionals. JUST TWO! Changes that 7 movements to 3.

That's over 40% reduction in movement. This is a quality of life, and also a compromise for those that like positional style gameplay. I find this a happy medium.

This also gives the job MUCH more smooth playstyle. Blitz and Chackra will be a great filler now that we will no longer have DK > Boot x3 anymore.

MNK will actually flow sooooo much better with those 2 positionals removed, and the new direction of the job has so much more freedom.

A game should have rules and punishment, and that's what makes it a game. But when those rules are actually getting in the way of a job i.e. MNK. Which is quite literally what happened to MNK over the years, it just stuck to it's strict rules of positionals and GL upkeep.

Well those rules have been loosened or completely removed. This is a good thing for the future of the job.

[Mikey_R]

With the current DK > Twin > Demo > Boot > True > Snap > DK > True > Snap > Boot > Twin > Demo. This is 7 movements.

Double True strike isn't a thing at the moment, so this is wrong (based off of info from Balance Discord).

DK > Twin > Demo > BS > True > Snap > DK > Twin > Snap > BS > True > Demo

Same length of attack string, that is 3 positional movements.

Every Perfect Balance, assuming 100% uptime, will swap DK and BS in the rotation;

BS > Twin > Demo > DK > True > Snap > BS > Twin > Snap > DK > True > Demo

so if it started with BS instead of DK, then you have 8 movements, bearing in mind this is over 12 GCDs.

At this point, we cannot say how Blitz will interact with the rotation and until we get more info, it will be impossible to tell. Should they have removed positionals from Raptor Form? In my opinion, no, but until I get my hands on EW Monk, I am not going to comment on something I do not know.

As for positionals being part of a Monk's identity, probably not, however it has always been a key part of how the job plays in the same way that one of the key features of Black Mage is finding that spot to stand still on.

EDIT: Reaper has more of an identity than MNK from what I can see in the trailer.

Monk used to be a quick attacking crit machine between guaranteed crit on Bootshine and Internal release increasing critical rate. It was also the highest DPS which was balanced by GL stacks and doing positionals. You want the high damage, you have to work for it.

Over the years it has lost Internal Release and so it wasn't as much of a crit monster as it was before, Lost GL management and is now no longer the highest DPS. All Monk has from it's inception from ARR is it's positionals. As Monk players, we are literally holding onto one of the last things that made the job unique and stand out from the rest and, to top it off, Monk hasn't gained anything else unique to try and offset what was lost. Want positionals lessened? Give me a reason to want to lose positionals, don't just take them away for the sake of taking them away.

[Kahnom]

Over the years it has lost Internal Release and so it wasn't as much of a crit monster as it was before, Lost GL management and is now no longer the highest DPS. All Monk has from it's inception from ARR is it's positionals. As Monk players, we are literally holding onto one of the last things that made the job unique and stand out from the rest and, to top it off, Monk hasn't gained anything else unique to try and offset what was lost. Want positionals lessened? Give me a reason to want to lose positionals, don't just take them away for the sake of taking them away.

Yes, they nerfed the job over the years without laid the foundations for the job to evolve.
Other dps jobs got new stuffs to work with in Stormblood but what did we got ? 3- color tackles.......
GL4 was like a big slap to players's faces. More speed is good, yes, but at the same time we also want something new, something different than ARR rotations but they failed to answer that question.
Instead, We kept getting more and more of support skills which mostly maintaing GL and that is good for a moment but at the same time, these skills won't help the job grow and finally we hit the wall in ShB.

People said MNK need identities. Well, we got identities, alright.
But those identities are getting smaller and smaller over time and right now MNK looks very small when compare to other jobs. SE shouldn't let this happen in the first place.

They were determined to fix SMN for the past few years but they left MNK in the dust like a relic from the past. Double standards, if I have to say it bluntly.

I hate being salty but it is what it is. Suck to be us, I guess.

[VirusOnline]

As for positionals being part of a Monk's identity, probably not, however it has always been a key part of how the job plays in the same way that one of the key features of Black Mage is finding that spot to stand still on.



Monk used to be a quick attacking crit machine between guaranteed crit on Bootshine and Internal release increasing critical rate. It was also the highest DPS which was balanced by GL stacks and doing positionals. You want the high damage, you have to work for it.

Over the years it has lost Internal Release and so it wasn't as much of a crit monster as it was before, Lost GL management and is now no longer the highest DPS. All Monk has from it's inception from ARR is it's positionals. As Monk players, we are literally holding onto one of the last things that made the job unique and stand out from the rest and, to top it off, Monk hasn't gained anything else unique to try and offset what was lost. Want positionals lessened? Give me a reason to want to lose positionals, don't just take them away for the sake of taking them away.

I agree. And that was MNKs identity. GL speed + crit. So fast that even NIN mains have a hard time keeping up at full GL.

And that's the issue in bold I'm pointing out. It's apparent that SE no longer cares about positionals or MNKs last dying identity. It will be lessened whether we like it or not for this expansion. And hopefully because they want to completely redesign it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I like the positionals. Always have. It makes it unique but after 6,7 years of a stagnant MNK that has slowly been drained of its core identity - if one is given the ultimatum of a class redesign vs. hanging onto an archaic last stand I'll risk the redesign. The thing about BLM is that its immobility is not all it's known for. If a redesign allowed for full positionals but make it so that it's not it's only identifying factor - even better. Gameplay of a class is only part of how we come to love a job. The other part is the animations, perhaps its lore, its ability themes, etc. Right now MNK is the weakest of near all of these areas. As for positionals, though it may not be a 1:1 comparison, DRG is a close tie for it and thus lessens the positional "is our unique identity" even more.

[Sqwall]

Now, don't get me wrong. I like the positionals. Always have. It makes it unique but after 6,7 years of a stagnant MNK that has slowly been drained of its core identity - if one is given the ultimatum of a class redesign vs. hanging onto an archaic last stand I'll risk the redesign. The thing about BLM is that its immobility is not all it's known for. If a redesign allowed for full positionals but make it so that it's not it's only identifying factor - even better. Gameplay of a class is only part of how we come to love a job. The other part is the animations, perhaps its lore, its ability themes, etc. Right now MNK is the weakest of near all of these areas. As for positionals, though it may not be a 1:1 comparison, DRG is a close tie for it and thus lessens the positional "is our unique identity" even more.

I echo this completely and you said it better then I could have I suppose. When GL was taken out and all that was left was positionals and chakra...that was the nail in the coffin for old monk. Without the need to constantly worry about GL anymore, left us chakra and positionals. GL was monks identity, and the whole job centered around it and it's upkeep. Now things have changed and job is going in a new direction (thankfully), and the fact that some postionals being removed as well as GL mechanic getting reworked tells me just how much SE cares about those aspects of Monk. Positionals just aren't that important so they were lessened to make way for something new and different.

I think in a perfect world we could have a postional heavy job, we really could. But if it were to be enjoyable it would REALLY have to focus completely on positionals as it's core design. Literally making every postional fullfilled grant buffs, gauge spender, dot potency, critical hits, etc. And you would ONLY get those rewards for ONLY completing those positionals. Missing a postional would mean your DoT is less powerful, not getting a buff, not getting gauge, etc. THAT would be an identity a positional job should employ. MNK just didn't commit that way....so postionals are not it's identity. Chackra, Blitz, Crit chance, and fast gameplay are now. This is a good direction.

I have thought about if we added postionals to RDM 3 melee combo, would change it's identity? Absolutely not...it's still RDM. Adding postionals didn't change anything about White Mana/Black Mana, verflare, verholy, scorch. They would all be the same. Now if you added postionals that are required to be completed to verflare/verholy gain x3 of it's respect mana, and scroch always crits. THEN they class would be very different. MNK doesn't really offer that outside of minor potency increases...I still get leaden fist regardless if I DK from the rear. I still get twin regardless if I hit from the rear. I still get Demo DoT if I were to hit it from the flank.

[IruruCece]

It's apparent that SE no longer cares about positionals or MNKs last dying identity.

Clearly, given that we're borrowing elements from other jobs and catering to people who don't even main the job and will probably be playing something else before they even finish the MSQ. Nothing about Blitzes sounds remotely good on paper to me outside of the fancy animations. Given the increasingly negative reception to the "glow up" MCH got from people who play it more seriously than I ever have, I'm firmly in wait-and-see mode.

SE repeatedly ignored core issues with the job (chakra generation and useage, GL retention, capstone ability slowing us down for no good reason, the riddle of fire slowdown). Arguably, they never gave a single solid cow patty about Monk's identity beyond the fact that it "had GL", hence why so much of ShB's new kit was dedicated around maintaining it seemingly without any real understanding of how those abilities would be used during actual gameplay. And if they'd truly given a damn about GL, perhaps it might have been kind of them to make it so the buff didn't drain away every time they decided to flex their PS3 engine's graphical chops during a mid-fight cutscene.

The argument about positionals is particularly frustrating in that SE repeatedly de-emphasized them to the point where players openly brag on these forums about missing all of them but bootshine, because bootshine, our level 1 button, is our STRONGEST combo button. To the point where our BURST phase is about setting up opportunities to spam it! This is why the removal of GL was never a "good start." It was a dart thrown at a board, and everything else going wrong with the job was plainly ignored because it's more obvious than ever there was nobody among the devs who was giving the job the same sort of attention that everyone else was receiving.

If Endwalker can't even address the problem with Bootshine, the job deserves to languish in mediocrity no matter how many fancy anime backflips and teleports our Blitzes add to "~the aesthetic~".

[VentVanitas]

MNK needs to identify as MNK in the same way we play a NIN and know why it's a NIN.

Positionals aren't MNK's sole identity but they are unique to the job and I believe it should stay that way for the sake of making melee DPS more different from one another.

[VirusOnline]

Don´t know what you´re talking about. The stealth actions which never get used? Or that you stay 95% of the fight behind the boss?
Only Mudra is specific. Ninjutsus is what you expect from a NIN of course as much as i would expect really fast and movement based gameplay from a MNK. I haven´t seen any MMA fighter or similar pugilists which are like "Sry bro, we don´t move today. Let´s clap in our hands instead.".

If you´ve only one positional heavy class, where the whole rotation and even escape skills are based around that, then of course it´s an identity. Both classes are even the only ones with some kind of identity imo. DRG and SAM are completely standard just with animations. Caster differences are "cast - dot - melee combo". And we don´t even need to talk about tank or healer identities.

I didn't say MNK should be a NIN.
Also MNK being positional heavy is a crap identity. A class should be able to be identified by style, and theme as well.

MNK needs to identify as a MNK in its design as a whole. I.E.
DRG ? We might think dragons. Estinien. That burst phase. Eye of Dragon. Jumps autolock. Floor tank.
SAM ? Katana. Midare Setsugekka. Tsubame-gaeshi. Powerful strikes. Selfish, but makes up for it.
NIN ? Trick attack. Ten Chi Jin. Ninjitsu. Ninja run. Movement passive trait.
MNK ? "Oh that one job where you gotta get positionals on like every ability" and uh fists. *clap*

MNK has some good things going for it in EW though. The new abilities are flashy and make sense to its theme and design and MNK needs more of that.

EDIT: Reaper has more of an identity than MNK from what I can see in the trailer.