The clones of Emet.

[Veloran]

Did you notice that those "arrows" exploded? You should look up concussive force, sometime. They missed at first to inspire terror. It's a common villain tactic.

You're correct in his tactic but wrong in his motivation. He one-shot the Scions but didn't kill them in order to drive WoL closer to the edge without just shoving him over, because his hope was for WoL to overcome against all odds. Ultimately Shadowbringer's ending was the outcome he most wanted to happen and the one he put the most active effort into achieving.

[Vyrerus]

You're correct in his tactic but wrong in his motivation. He one-shot the Scions but didn't kill them in order to drive WoL closer to the edge without just shoving him over, because his hope was for WoL to overcome against all odds. Ultimately Shadowbringer's ending was the outcome he most wanted to happen and the one he put the most active effort into achieving.

While I agree, it's not yet explicit.

[Vyrerus]

So, basically.

You're mistaking cause and effect here. Your inference is also skewed. The WoL drops their mouth in shock for much lesser things, and it's just as like that they were surprised that Hythlodaeus wanted them to live and win against Elidibus. You know, because it means that Elidibus dies. It's surprising that an ancient would want that, no?

The only reason we got the SHB experience is due to Emet-selch, yes. Without him, Garlemald would not have restarted Black Rose production. There would be no alternate timeline shenanigans and no Calling. We would have crushed Garlemald in a war that we have no knowledge for, other than the Eorzean Alliance is the greater force. Elidibus would have faced us, and lost.

Keep in mind that even if we'd still had all the First shenanigans and G'raha Tia did take the Lightwarden aether to The Rift, we would have gone back home at that point. Elidibus couldn't have stolen his Calling technique, so there'd be no Warrior of Light fight at the top of the alternate Syrcus Tower. There'd, in fact, be no alternate Syrcus Tower anymore. He planned to take the energy with him into the tower and leave with the tower.

Also remember how Emet-selch met us? He sent a doppelganger illusion, which Urianger sees through. He claims it's because, "One can never be too careful in the presence of a famed Ascian Slayer." Why the worry if his later contradiction of himself is true? Emet is a clever mastermind, but he doesn't see all, and he does lie.

[Veloran]

While I agree, it's not yet explicit.

I think it's extremely explicit, when considering the context of the later story and several interviews on the subject.

The only reason we got the SHB experience is due to Emet-selch, yes. Without him, Garlemald would not have restarted Black Rose production. There would be no alternate timeline shenanigans and no Calling. We would have crushed Garlemald in a war that we have no knowledge for, other than the Eorzean Alliance is the greater force. Elidibus would have faced us, and lost.

Was it not Elidibus (as Zenos) that pushed the Black Rose production? And in the alt timeline we have no idea what became of Elidibus.

Keep in mind that even if we'd still had all the First shenanigans and G'raha Tia did take the Lightwarden aether to The Rift, we would have gone back home at that point. Elidibus couldn't have stolen his Calling technique, so there'd be no Warrior of Light fight at the top of the alternate Syrcus Tower. There'd, in fact, be no alternate Syrcus Tower anymore. He planned to take the energy with him into the tower and leave with the tower.

Are we so sure he would have taken Syrcus Tower? I'm not so sure how he could get from Kholusia to the Crystarium while holding all that light aether. Moreover why could Elidibus not have done the very same thing regardless of G'raha's spell or the tower? When WoL invokes his ancient teleportation magic he wasn't using the Calling.

Also remember how Emet-selch met us? He sent a doppelganger illusion, which Urianger sees through. He claims it's because, "One can never be too careful in the presence of a famed Ascian Slayer." Why the worry if his later contradiction of himself is true? Emet is a clever mastermind, but he doesn't see all, and he does lie.

It seems to me he started with the illusion not because he feared being suddenly killed, but because if the "famed Ascian-slayer" had just jumped into action and attacked immediately it could have ruined their dialog. After all he's still there in that scene and appears himself just after the illusion is dispersed, so he couldn't have actually been too concerned of a threat to his person.

[Dawn_FF14]

Keep in mind that even if we'd still had all the First shenanigans and G'raha Tia did take the Lightwarden aether to The Rift, we would have gone back home at that point. Elidibus couldn't have stolen his Calling technique, so there'd be no Warrior of Light fight at the top of the alternate Syrcus Tower. There'd, in fact, be no alternate Syrcus Tower anymore. He planned to take the energy with him into the tower and leave with the tower.

If Exarch had taken the tower to the rift and died, presumably scions would be able to go home, but what about us, who uses the beacon to travel between the towers? Are we going to be stuck on the First instead? Maybe we can find our one way back to the source, but we’ll never be back to the First again.

Then, Ardbert would be a wondering ghost that has nobody to talk to until eternity. Emet could go and release Mitron from Eden, without worrying about aether imbalance. Gaia’s memory would be restored, and those two can pick up what they failed last round. Rejoining of the First is just being delayed, but these Ascians would still be alive. This will be a totally different story in another timeline.

As much as I love Emet, I don’t think he “planned” for everything to happen this way. He was just tired, and wanted to pass the torch or get his best friend back.

[Wiz33]

You're mistaking cause and effect here. Your inference is also skewed. The WoL drops their mouth in shock for much lesser things, and it's just as like that they were surprised that Hythlodaeus wanted them to live and win against Elidibus. You know, because it means that Elidibus dies. It's surprising that an ancient would want that, no?

The only reason we got the SHB experience is due to Emet-selch, yes. Without him, Garlemald would not have restarted Black Rose production. There would be no alternate timeline shenanigans and no Calling. We would have crushed Garlemald in a war that we have no knowledge for, other than the Eorzean Alliance is the greater force. Elidibus would have faced us, and lost.

Keep in mind that even if we'd still had all the First shenanigans and G'raha Tia did take the Lightwarden aether to The Rift, we would have gone back home at that point. Elidibus couldn't have stolen his Calling technique, so there'd be no Warrior of Light fight at the top of the alternate Syrcus Tower. There'd, in fact, be no alternate Syrcus Tower anymore. He planned to take the energy with him into the tower and leave with the tower.

Also remember how Emet-selch met us? He sent a doppelganger illusion, which Urianger sees through. He claims it's because, "One can never be too careful in the presence of a famed Ascian Slayer." Why the worry if his later contradiction of himself is true? Emet is a clever mastermind, but he doesn't see all, and he does lie.

We'll just have agree to dis-agree on what transpire between us and Hythlodaeus.

Elidibus restarted the Black Rose production. Emet just saw some other use for it in the first. We would be call to the first in either case and without Emet, Y'shtola would still be dead. Even if the Exarch did take our Aether to the rift, there will be no memory transfer to the younger G'raha and Elidibus will still be loose in the world..

I'm not saying Emet Selch is a saint. I'm sure he was a "evil" Ascian all set on continuing his work for the rejoining upon his return. What I'm saying is that once he meet us and saw that we have a fragment of Azem's soul and have another fragment walking beside us. He was finally open to the idea that we might be a worthy successor to their legacy and an alternative to the rejoining. He then proceed to test our worthiness all through ShB which resulted in us possessing 2 fragments of Azem's soul and the official holder of Azem's office as part of the 14. While Emet probably doesn't see all but he's basically a god compare to us with his thousands of thousands of years of experience among us, establishing the Allagan Empire and all his experience as a member of the convocation of 14.

[MikkoAkure]

At this point, with the information that we have been given by the writers, I'd say there's no point to assume that Emet-Selch is still alive unless shown otherwise.

But going back to the original topic about the clones, even if there were some that weren't destroyed by Estinien and Gaius, they'd still be in the hands of Zenos and Fandaniel, two people who feel they have been done wrong by the Unsundered or just don't care. If any possible remaining copies survive those two, and aren't used as fodder for their nightmare factory, do we even know if the clones would have Emet-Selch's memories and not those of the poor sap he possessed all those years ago? Emet-Selch as a being is a disembodied soul and his original body was a random Garlean boy he decided to turn into his meat suit.

If the cloning process preserves memories of the subject, it would make more sense to me that the memories preserved would be those of the original and not the memories of the incorporeal being that possessed him.

[Wiz33]

Video's here. It's an hour long, but there are timestamps in the description. And you're probably not gonna like it, because I pay more attention to deeds than words, and his deeds paint him as a pretty terrible, manipulative person.

I'd make counterarguments, but frankly, all of them are already in the video.

Watched the video, very interesting as I have not really brushed up on some of the others so that was informative. I'm actually Ok with the Emet part up until he meet us. But when he saw that we have a fragment of Azem's soul with Ardbert with another fragment beside us. He was finally open to the idea that we might be a worthy successor to their legacy and start laying the ground work to test us and help us. Just look at his body posture from when he first shown up and after we "defeated" him. He was no longer hunch over like a great weight has been lifted off his shoulder.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Elidibus would have faced us, and lost.

What makes you say this? The only reason we won against him in the first place in 5.3 was due to another unsundered helping us. We had no such thing when we were fighting him in SB. He could’ve simply used that rift move again and it would’ve been game over.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Video's here. It's an hour long, but there are timestamps in the description. And you're probably not gonna like it, because I pay more attention to deeds than words, and his deeds paint him as a pretty terrible, manipulative person.

I'd make counterarguments, but frankly, all of them are already in the video.

Pretty sure the devs themselves have said they don’t explicitly label many people as evil or good in the story. They specify the ShB story is a matter of perspective. Both sides aren’t good both sides aren’t bad.