Bard Changes I would love to see for End Walker

[Khala]

For me, a bard main from ARR until shb, you've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing satisfying to me about bard anymore. My reward now is to be a bottom tier dps. Which is a bad feeling when the group could have any other job and not have to work so hard. It feels real bad to be along "for the limit break" and solely to do mechanics so others don't have to. Movement tax is a poor excuse for what they've done to ranged physical as a whole.

I switched to machinist for my savage group after leveling up bard through msq and found it more cohesive, is the word I think I want. Also? Dancer is fun, Machinist is fun. They have fun animations. They have set things that bring about a tangible result. As Bard has moved along through expansions, we've lost some of those fun things and never really been given any of that back.

I don't have any interest in debating positions or specifics, I am just here to chime in with - when a job is unsatisfying or feels bad to play, people are going to find a job that doesn't. And for many, the effort required to be a proficient bard compared to a mediocre anything else that feels like it brings more to the party isn't worth it.

[Jirah]

For me, a bard main from ARR until shb, you've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing satisfying to me about bard anymore. My reward now is to be a bottom tier dps. Which is a bad feeling when the group could have any other job and not have to work so hard. It feels real bad to be along "for the limit break" and solely to do mechanics so others don't have to. Movement tax is a poor excuse for what they've done to ranged physical as a whole.

I switched to machinist for my savage group after leveling up bard through msq and found it more cohesive, is the word I think I want. Also? Dancer is fun, Machinist is fun. They have fun animations. They have set things that bring about a tangible result. As Bard has moved along through expansions, we've lost some of those fun things and never really been given any of that back.

I don't have any interest in debating positions or specifics, I am just here to chime in with - when a job is unsatisfying or feels bad to play, people are going to find a job that doesn't. And for many, the effort required to be a proficient bard compared to a mediocre anything else that feels like it brings more to the party isn't worth it.

again dps is mostly intangible and pointless, i mean SAM could be "botttom tier dps" and it would still be a fun job. If u need to draw concerns do it that you can gauge like its kit and support skills not a number that changes so radically that it should never be a point in its favor or disfavor. My main issues with BRD will NOT go away if they made it Top tier and never been so low on the spectrum where i was called out for it or ran into parties where they excluded it. (only time i saw this was with DRK back in the day or HW where they had required dps slots)

when u say cohesive i think basic and run-of-the-mill, personal feelings aside as cohesive it is to press a button 5 times or in DNC case 1-2. Also BRD in SB was a great rework from the god awful cast bar days, and the only things it lost was the tp mp sutff, foes, and troubadour being homogenized aswell as the dots being more flat than relying on crit. besides this ,it plays the same in my eyes plus like 1 or 2 bells and whistles so i dont understand the complaints of "it used to be better" when it plays the same or similarly so that any debate that it used to be soo much better is usually exaggeration, or im missing something.

This is where u lost me, when u brought up 2 jobs infamously known to be the most brain dead jobs in the game, then say it requires effort to be competent compared to those where u can just turn off ur brain ...worries me. BRD cousins arent high end jobs that all jobs should strive for, BRD isnt demanding, DNC and MCH arent demanding enough and goes right back to the "ranged tax" which i still dont care about unless it involves their kit

[Easayia]

Honestly I would be fine hitting weaker then others and having the burst phase we currently have if we are given more things to support with. I really like the idea of using soul gage to apply another type of buff rather then fireing off the AOE arrow for damage it just makes sense. I like how current bard plays and I hope they dont change it to much I want more added to bard not things taken away. I like how bards rotation plays is unique to Bard. I would not favor them buffing us to be TOP DPS for ranged I dont think its needed Bard is meant to be a supporting role not what something like machinist should be but currently isn't. Machinist should have top DPS for range its in its nature but Bard needs to be the Whole team first while Dancer should be all about buffing specific members.

And thus DPS should look like this:

Machinist > Dancer > Bard

Party Effects should look like this:

Bard > Dancer > Machinist

[ForteNightshade]

again dps is mostly intangible and pointless, i mean SAM could be "botttom tier dps" and it would still be a fun job.

I disagree. Part of what attracts players to Samurai is the aforementioned dopamine effect Cetonis mentioned earlier. The belief it does incredibly high damage is apart of its identity. I cannot tell you the sheer number of Samurai players who believe they're top DPS despite a certain magical abacus proving otherwise. And no other job garners that reaction nearly as often. Incidentally, many prefer the Stormblood iteration of Samurai, which was notoriously weak. Which made it far less popular than its counterparts, Dragoon and Ninja.

None of this is to say Bard isn't without issue rotationally, but don't underestimate the impact low damage output can have on people's perception.

Also BRD in SB was a great rework from the god awful cast bar days, and the only things it lost was the tp mp sutff, foes, and troubadour being homogenized aswell as the dots being more flat than relying on crit. besides this ,it plays the same in my eyes plus like 1 or 2 bells and whistles so i dont understand the complaints of "it used to be better" when it plays the same or similarly so that any debate that it used to be soo much better is usually exaggeration, or im missing something.

You're forgetting the Crit scaling, which allowed for a more engaging interaction with Iron Jaws. Key word being engaging. While all those smaller attributes may seem like nothing to you, they were a significant part of what made Bard feel like a support job to its fanbase. The fact Bard went from the most popular DPS in the game to battle with Monk for the least speaks volumes. It isn't that each of these individual aspects added much to Bard's kit but all of them combined brought more engagement. You had to consider MP management, Refresh timings, snapshotting buffs and so forth. This helped distract from the more boring parts of Bard which often spams a lot of Heavy/Burst Shot. Taking them away isn't necessarily the issue either, though I do think it's a factor. It's more nothing replaced them. Bard lost all of its small nuances and gained absolutely nothing worthwhile.

And therein lies the problem. Bard is literally Stormblood, yes. But worse. The same job except those small nuances were replaced with a boring AoE you hardly use and a tacked on gauge spender that you otherwise forget exists.

Machinist and Dancer may be simpler but they achieve their goal far better. It helps they aren't living in the shadows of a better iteration.

[dezzmont]

I disagree. Part of what attracts players to Samurai is the aforementioned dopamine effect Cetonis mentioned earlier. The belief it does incredibly high damage is apart of its identity. I cannot tell you the sheer number of Samurai players who believe they're top DPS despite a certain magical abacus proving otherwise. And no other job garners that reaction nearly as often. Incidentally, many prefer the Stormblood iteration of Samurai, which was notoriously weak. Which made it far less popular than its counterparts, Dragoon and Ninja.

None of this is to say Bard isn't without issue rotationally, but don't underestimate the impact low damage output can have on people's perception.

I think you are right and wrong here. Monk also is an extremely high DPS class but has super low player satisfaction in polls despite that. Low DPS is, for most players, only going to be seen as a problem if the job is already unfun, and high DPS likewise only matters if the job 'sells' it well, which SAM does way better than almost any other job in the game besides maybe Black Mage.

It also matters to talk about the segment of the player base we are discussing. Stormblood SAM were not popular in statics or high end stuff, but trust me when I say they were flipping EVERYWHERE outside of that. Ideally you make the job both fun and good, but I would say fun is more critical than good, and the fantasy of the job being well executed is the most critical part of that.

[Jirah]

I think you are right and wrong here. Monk also is an extremely high DPS class but has super low player satisfaction in polls despite that. Low DPS is, for most players, only going to be seen as a problem if the job is already unfun, and high DPS likewise only matters if the job 'sells' it well, which SAM does way better than almost any other job in the game besides maybe Black Mage.

It also matters to talk about the segment of the player base we are discussing. Stormblood SAM were not popular in statics or high end stuff, but trust me when I say they were flipping EVERYWHERE outside of that. Ideally you make the job both fun and good, but I would say fun is more critical than good, and the fantasy of the job being well executed is the most critical part of that.

I don’t often agree with you but this was a perfect analogy. If numbers were so high in demand MNK would be popular but even when it was reduced in 5.3 it still isn’t

Fun factor will always sell, and BRD issues won’t wither away because it’s dps is good or rather “good enough”

As much as I agree with how BRD in SHB is inevitably a downgrade due to the removal of emminty/MP/Tp skills, this isn’t unique to BRD it just suffered the most. DNC & MCH May be more popular but they are pretty far from their prime. DNC being brand new and MCH being accessible to the lowest common denominator, BRD with its same old style can’t compare,

and with that all settled solutions would be fun to suggest rather than complaining mechanics that no longer exist no longer exist, or trying to cripple it to be as accessible when it doesn’t need to be. Devs have shown time and time again they don’t care to delete whole mechanics to please idiots (Dark arts, Mana skills, Ammunition, Fariy diversity, Grease lightning, Deck skills)

[Lastelli]

Honestly, I think the main reason why BRD is relatively unpopular (still more popular than MCH though) right now has more to do with the fact the DNC monopolized the scene since it's very appealing in terms of aesthetics to many former BRD players. Of course there's also the fact the DNC is a stronger job in terms of meta comp given the dominant fight design of savage bosses. However, BRD is still stronger than MCH and in fights where double targeting is possible, it's stronger than DNC too by a pretty big margin. My point is...considering how this game's community reasons, I strongly believe that glamour and style has more to do with BRD's fall from grace than anything else. Before ShB BRD was simply a god. Top DPS, top support, total mobility, stronger than MCH by FAR and nice glam and aesthetics. Then DNC came and it was the new fancy job with a nice dress and frills and MCH actually became a viable choice.

[Jirah]

Honestly, I think the main reason why BRD is relatively unpopular (still more popular than MCH though) right now has more to do with the fact the DNC monopolized the scene since it's very appealing in terms of aesthetics to many former BRD players. Of course there's also the fact the DNC is a stronger job in terms of meta comp given the dominant fight design of savage bosses. However, BRD is still stronger than MCH and in fights where double targeting is possible, it's stronger than DNC too by a pretty big margin. My point is...considering how this game's community reasons, I strongly believe that glamour and style has more to do with BRD's fall from grace than anything else. Before ShB BRD was simply a god. Top DPS, top support, total mobility, stronger than MCH by FAR and nice glam and aesthetics. Then DNC came and it was the new fancy job with a nice dress and frills and MCH actually became a viable choice.

I don’t like these exaggerations of “viability” and “tiers” some may argue on it but I think this thought process is incredibly harmful. All jobs are viable, didn’t have issues clearing savage as a MCH in SB nor did it seem easier when I rolled on other jobs like AST BRD or SAM. MCH popularity in SHB was its night and day accessibility not its “meta viability” as most people that play with MCH don’t even do any of the harder content.

Jobs that can be mastered without training or can be played without much thought are all the rage, another point in DNC favor as it’s only rival of being the easiest job in the game is its ranged cousin. These mains look down on BRD mainly due to it requiring more than just 1-2-3 or in DNC case 1-2-S as we seen many people complain about it being “too hard” “too much to look out for” and “why can’t BRD be as easy as DNC?”

[Lastelli]

I don’t like these exaggerations of “viability” and “tiers” some may argue on it but I think this thought process is incredibly harmful. All jobs are viable, didn’t have issues clearing savage as a MCH in SB nor did it seem easier when I rolled on other jobs like AST BRD or SAM. MCH popularity in SHB was its night and day accessibility not its “meta viability” as most people that play with MCH don’t even do any of the harder content.

Jobs that can be mastered without training or can be played without much thought are all the rage, another point in DNC favor as it’s only rival of being the easiest job in the game is its ranged cousin. These mains look down on BRD mainly due to it requiring more than just 1-2-3 or in DNC case 1-2-S as we seen many people complain about it being “too hard” “too much to look out for” and “why can’t BRD be as easy as DNC?”

All jobs are viable, but SB MCH was a strictly inferior choice by a significant margin in all possible scenarios. If you were bringing it in any kind of serious prog, you were basically trolling your party (could still clear though). This clearly contributed to BRD's dominance over the last expansion. I'm not arguing about viability though. I'm just saying that this community values glam more than anything else and DNC is just a more "fashionable" job. The fact that it's also "meta" and braindead easy to master helped, but simplicity isn't the main factor here, otherwise MCH should be the second most popular job.

[Jirah]

All jobs are viable, but SB MCH was a strictly inferior choice by a significant margin in all possible scenarios. If you were bringing it in any kind of serious prog, you were basically trolling your party (could still clear though). This clearly contributed to BRD's dominance over the last expansion. I'm not arguing about viability though. I'm just saying that this community values glam more than anything else and DNC is just a more "fashionable" job. The fact that it's also "meta" and braindead easy to master helped, but simplicity isn't the main factor here, otherwise MCH should be the second most popular job.

Trolling huh, no job back then or now isn’t this held back, not even word first follow meta rules nor should they be a point in this debate

It’s pretty evident that people hold this in way too high regard and going back to BRD, or any job in that matter. Being “top tier” isn’t enough it’s enough for some but it’s not gonna fix any job with functionally malnourished kits or shallow mechanics which I’d rather have more focus , or in MNK case flashier moves (Bootshine desperately needs a upgrade skill ie broil)