Can one truly be "carried" in an Ultimate Raid?

[Ajantisz]

Haters will always find a justification to discredit something - oh person X didnt complete it by my subjective standards therefore person X actions are invalid and I wont be convinced otherwise because I hate them. They will constantly shift goal posts to suit their own worldview, and be bloody minded that they are right and everyone else is wrong. That is how haters are, they hate watch streamers, they hate comment on their twitters and in their twitch chats and any where that will allow it, but they are obsessed and will engage more than people who actually are fans. These people are like the Frank Burns to Hawkeye from the old show MASH, they love a streamer, hate them too and wish more than anything to be them.

These people saying the highly experienced group carried him, need to ask themselves how many of that group would you have to switch out before it wasn't a carry?

[EaMett]

About the first one...
A prog is not just the run that clears, that's only the last step.
A lot is done and learned on the previous wipes. In a... "normal" group let's say, each member is expected to learn themselves and fix their mistakes themselves.

Was it because Rin was a great teacher? I'd argue about that.
More than anything, the answer and the how was handed to Rich. I'm not talking about the mechanics and strategy you can find in numerous guides but the execution.
You need to learn the execution yourself, that just comes back to the RL focusing entirely on Rich during the prog. That last clean clear is the result of that process repeated again and again. The opposite result would've been strange.

It's one of those things that are very "grey area" imo. Going in content with 7 cleared is always going to mean that each hour of prog is going to yield better personal growth for the one new player. Rin's callouts were amazing but ultimately you can get that out of ACT as well, and many do. The impressive part about it was that Rin had so much mental leeway that he could do his stuff right and call out Rich's mechanics as well.

But at the end of the day, clearing any fight is about being able to not suck for an entire run. And Rich did just that. I honestly didn't see anything wrong about his runs, they looked exactly like what you'd expect from a decent player spending 20+ hours in there. And in that sense, it isn't a carry. It wasn't that fast a clear either tbh.
Was his journey there not the typical experience? Sure, but it was never going to be, the guy is a streamer. From the get-go he has to play the game AND entertain his chat (which takes away a lot of focus btw).

If people are complaining about his journey being a little faster, then yeah that's fine, that was the very point of the setup from the start. I'm not sure why they would care.. But ok.
If people are claiming that he was carried through his clear. Then no, he definitely wasn't.

[Terin]

I'll say, this is something I've seen coming up lately, and I feel brings out kind of an ugly side in the otherwise-wonderful FFXIV community: the idea that "if someone cleared harder content than me, they must have cheated".

I was recently sharing how ecstatic I was about clearing E4S, because I hadn't really "raided SERIOUSLY" since probably MoP in WoW. I was just sharing my excitement, but I had a few people chime in "well, if you didn't do the min-ilvl and no-echo, you didn't REALLY clear it". Which I mean, it's totally valid that those things would be way MORE impressive, but it sort of felt like a couple folks unnecessarily rained on my parade, of sorts. And when it comes to high-level content, it does seem a fairly common sentiment that "it doesn't really count, unless you do it how I did it".

I mean, I'm HOPING to meet up with a group tonight to run TEA, and since I think some of them have already cleared, I fully acknowledge I'll have a massive advantage if I get invited. And since I haven't spend time farming the BiS for TEA, they may decide I need to do that first, or they may let me in and I'm terrible. But even if I somehow manage a clear, I feel like there's going to be those folks saying "it doesn't count". Like I said, I fully acknowledge when people do something extra-hard. Just seems like kind of an odd thing to be kind of a recurring issue in FFXIV, as far as I've noticed anyways.

[EaMett]

I'll say, this is something I've seen coming up lately, and I feel brings out kind of an ugly side in the otherwise-wonderful FFXIV community: the idea that "if someone cleared harder content than me, they must have cheated".

I was recently sharing how ecstatic I was about clearing E4S, because I hadn't really "raided SERIOUSLY" since probably MoP in WoW. I was just sharing my excitement, but I had a few people chime in "well, if you didn't do the min-ilvl and no-echo, you didn't REALLY clear it". Which I mean, it's totally valid that those things would be way MORE impressive, but it sort of felt like a couple folks unnecessarily rained on my parade, of sorts. And when it comes to high-level content, it does seem a fairly common sentiment that "it doesn't really count, unless you do it how I did it".

I mean, I'm HOPING to meet up with a group tonight to run TEA, and since I think some of them have already cleared, I fully acknowledge I'll have a massive advantage if I get invited. And since I haven't spend time farming the BiS for TEA, they may decide I need to do that first, or they may let me in and I'm terrible. But even if I somehow manage a clear, I feel like there's going to be those folks saying "it doesn't count". Like I said, I fully acknowledge when people do something extra-hard. Just seems like kind of an odd thing to be kind of a recurring issue in FFXIV, as far as I've noticed anyways.

There are people that mod the game to remove any legend titles or ultimate weapons from other players. Denial is strong sometimes lol. So don't worry about people raining on your parade. A clear is a clear, enjoy it.

[Tsumdere]

I'll say, this is something I've seen coming up lately, and I feel brings out kind of an ugly side in the otherwise-wonderful FFXIV community: the idea that "if someone cleared harder content than me, they must have cheated".

I was recently sharing how ecstatic I was about clearing E4S, because I hadn't really "raided SERIOUSLY" since probably MoP in WoW. I was just sharing my excitement, but I had a few people chime in "well, if you didn't do the min-ilvl and no-echo, you didn't REALLY clear it". Which I mean, it's totally valid that those things would be way MORE impressive, but it sort of felt like a couple folks unnecessarily rained on my parade, of sorts. And when it comes to high-level content, it does seem a fairly common sentiment that "it doesn't really count, unless you do it how I did it".

I mean, I'm HOPING to meet up with a group tonight to run TEA, and since I think some of them have already cleared, I fully acknowledge I'll have a massive advantage if I get invited. And since I haven't spend time farming the BiS for TEA, they may decide I need to do that first, or they may let me in and I'm terrible. But even if I somehow manage a clear, I feel like there's going to be those folks saying "it doesn't count". Like I said, I fully acknowledge when people do something extra-hard. Just seems like kind of an odd thing to be kind of a recurring issue in FFXIV, as far as I've noticed anyways.

Most people who act like that haven't cleared hard content themselves. They are just jealous and projecting onto you. They cannot clear it themselves so they delude themselves into believing that it's actually really easy and they just don't want to do it, just so they can diminish the achievements of other people.

As long as you didn't pay for the clear and lay dead on the ground the whole time, you deserve it.

[Goji1639]

I'd say that if 24 people operating at your current capacity and throughput couldn't clear the Ultimate, then to some extent you were carried. If you were slightly below the output needed, then someone slightly above that average carried your slack across the finish line.

Not that it's a huge deal, but if we're getting technical then that's how I see it.

[Driavna]

I'd say that if 24 people operating at your current capacity and throughput couldn't clear the Ultimate, then to some extent you were carried. If you were slightly below the output needed, then someone slightly above that average carried your slack across the finish line.

Not that it's a huge deal, but if we're getting technical then that's how I see it.

24? Why that number?

[Goji1639]

24? Why that number?

Dunno, always assumed ultimates are 24 players. Never actually done one. Can replace that number with whatever is correct.

[Neotempest]

There is 6 pages that clearly explains the situation. A few of them make good use of space to make a wall of text breath a bit!

To make it easier for you:
-Rich had specifically made call out. It's as if your car would tell you to stop at red light or would read traffic sign for you and would correct your trajectory if you go deviate too much on left or right.
-His group was half filled with monsters, not veteran. World first raider and 8 tank RL, that's more than a veteran group.

No matter which angle you attack the problem, Rich always had a different situation which resulted in the easiest UCOB clear that isn't someone piloting your account.

In my own opinion, claiming Rich did not get carried is the same as saying he doesn't deserves the clear. Both are extreme black and white views without looking further than your nose.
Because both answers are "No". The problem is jumping on the "No" and the "Yes" while what should interest everyone is the "Why".

Hating RichCOB or not is another question. With a simple answer: Keep it to you.

Oh this is real cute. So, let me put it this way. You're comparison is like saying a Boxer should not have a coach or a trainer because the boxer is carried by their coach or trainer. I have read each response and they are all the same with a few flavors added in. You know why I put what I did in the quotes you left out? Because it addresses the issue you seem to not want to address. Be specific of what you qualify as a clear so that way we can tell new players into Ultimates that if they did not do an Ultimate under these specific guide lines it doesn't count. So that way that 7 man doesn't count as a clear OR the tank only run doesn't count as a clear because they didn't do them under your guidelines. That tank only run had a LOT of call outs, you wanna tell them they didn't earn their clear? If it was, what percentage of call outs are you okay with so be considered a clear? No call outs? Cool lets just nuke 50% of Ultimate clears for your pure view of what a clear means. When you start becoming petty and spiteful over someone else you are also disqualifying other players who may have gotten Ultimates under similar conditions.

[Neotempest]

I love these mental gymnastics.

One person has a problem with it -> Everyone else calls it a carry (or not) and says that is alright and cool -> THE FORUMS ARE A CESSPOOL OF TOXICITY! EVERYONE JUST HATES HERE! HOW DARE YOU!!!!1111!!! SO MANY HATERS! YOU ARE ALL HATERS!!!

I really love this and it repeats itself so well in all the different threads. As soon as someone has a different opinion someone like the quoted person up there just shoots into a thread and screams that it's infested with so many toxic people. xD

As if this issue appears on forums only. In general I just see most of not all forms of social media as toxic since those tend to be infested with fragile ego individuals. Regardless if it's here, twitter, youtube, or twitch, a toxic individual will always appear and those that agree with him. The whole topic is stupid in general because it leads into disqualifying a large amount of Ultimate clears because someones ego on what qualifies as a clear isn't met.