The trouble with telling tanks W2W pulls are a mandatory norm.

[van_arn]

You've been trying so hard to look like an Internet tough guy in this thread its cute honestly. Its like looking at a Teddy bear with an angry face. I doubt its the image you're going for, but it is the one your actually achieving.

Thank you for your feedback. What your personal feelings are about how I do or don’t present myself doesn’t really have any impact on the topic at hand: that being more tanks need an ego check if they don’t want to do as their teams require.

[Artemiz]

Thank you for your feedback. What your personal feelings are about how I do or don’t present myself doesn’t really have any impact on the topic at hand: that being more tanks need an ego check if they don’t want to do as their teams require.

This has nothing to do with ego but cheers for the input, Rambo.

[van_arn]

Bro you... know it's a game, right?

Of course it is. That's why boring me is a cardinal sin, especially when I notice the other DPS or healer bored too.

[Awha]

Depending on the DPS makeup, it's quite possible the tank is the only person in the party who has an AoE attack when you're in an early ARR dungeon. Sure, Bard's at least got Quick Nock by level 18 (though that still potentially means they might not have it in Sastasha), but Samurai doesn't have an AoE ability at all until level 28, and Dragoon's down any AoEs until level 40. Ninja gets an AoE Ninjutsu at 35, but you don't have an AoE ability which doesn't require mudra until level 38.

I would argue that pulling multiple groups -- much less pulling wall-to-wall -- when you have only the tank with AoE abilities and everyone else is single-targeting is a wildly different scenario than pulling wall-to-wall when everyone has AoEs they can do. Heck, you only need to try it in Sastasha -- try pulling wall-to-wall with a dragoon and a ninja synced to 18 as your DPS (neither of whom will have AoE abilities in there), versus pulling wall-to-wall with a machinist and a dancer synced to 18 (both of whom do).

Even as the only AoE I still find doing double pulls more efficient. Does not require any extra effort on the part if the group is required.

I am nor saying one should do w2w pulls without aoe but I do not think single pulls have any real place in the game outside of certain niche situations like certain pulls in a dungeon or missing a player etc. . .

[ForteNightshade]

Any number of reasons. Maybe they're with the healer and they know the healer can't handle it. Maybe they're with the dps and they know the dps can't handle it. Maybe they know they don't have things quite down pat themselves mitigation wise so they're pulling within their limits. Maybe they're doing small to gauge the group's overall ability. Maybe they're tired. Maybe they have a kid screaming at them. Maybe they just want to chill after work. Nobody else is behind the screen with them or in their head, so any answer would just be a guess.

What is it really hurting to make adjustments in our play style to make the run go as smooth as possible with the makeup of the group that we get? Our ego?

To be a bit blunt. Why am I supposed to care that someone hasn't slept well because their husband snores, they have a screaming child or they wanna relax and "take it easy"? None of these are mine or the remaining 2/6/22 players problem. Not to say I can't empathize but at the same time, we all signed up for get through whatever content. If real life is being such a burden you can't seem to play properly for whatever. Perhaps don't play a multi-player game where your performance impacts other players and their enjoyment.

For the sake of example, I used to have a friend back in Heavensward who arbitrarily decided to have "lazy days". She'd queue as a healer and basically do enough to keep the party alive but very little else because "I'm tired and lazy." We got into an argument when I happened to be MT for Dun Scaith and was in Deliverance, which meant she needed to heal more. She insisted I need to stay in Defiance as did one of her friends because "if the healer asks you to be in tank stance, you just do it." She was actively wanting to ruin my enjoyment for her own. Her entire line of reason falls under your "just wanting to chill" excuse. The problem is, that enjoyment for one person comes at the potential expense of others.

I also find it a pretty lame excuse, especially as I know several people working 9-12 hour days and don't decide, "I'm going to play poorly cause I'm tired" Maybe they miss a few Holys or clip a few GCDs. But they don't suddenly decide to pull three mobs or not DPS at all as a healer.

[Psytic]

I don't know maybe I just suck at Scholar but I find I have less burst healing then the other two healers so sometimes its a bit harder keep people up on W2W especially when 7/10 tanks don't use defensive cool downs on trash to help you out.

[Trobon]

I would argue that pulling multiple groups -- much less pulling wall-to-wall -- when you have only the tank with AoE abilities and everyone else is single-targeting is a wildly different scenario than pulling wall-to-wall when everyone has AoEs they can do. Heck, you only need to try it in Sastasha -- try pulling wall-to-wall with a dragoon and a ninja synced to 18 as your DPS (neither of whom will have AoE abilities in there), versus pulling wall-to-wall with a machinist and a dancer synced to 18 (both of whom do).

It’s only different in that things die a little slower. Not in what you can pull. There’s almost no chance your healer is running out of MP before the end of a pull in Satasha which is the main thing making DPS important. Having a tank be the only one with AoEs still means the tank is doing more damage overall. If your single target DPS is doing 50 DPS each and the tank can either do 30 DPS single or 15 AoE then attacking one pack of three means you’re doing 145 DPS total whereas pulling 10 mobs means you’re doing 250 DPS total. The only time factors are your mitigations and healer MP but in Satasha even tank AoEs burn enemies fast enough this isn’t a big deal.

So the pull should really just be based on what your gear can mitigate and what the healers gear can output healing. What DPS is with you will make it go quicker or slower but won’t be the deciding factor.

[Trobon]

I don't know maybe I just suck at Scholar but I find I have less burst healing then the other two healers so sometimes its a bit harder keep people up on W2W especially when 7/10 tanks don't use defensive cool downs on trash to help you out.

If a tank isn’t using defensive CDs they have no business doing W2W. I’d argue they have no business tanking because they are more of a liability than anything without defensives, but at the very least they shouldn’t be trying to W2W while relying only on healers.

[Artemiz]

To be a bit blunt. Why am I supposed to care that someone hasn't slept well because their husband snores, they have a screaming child or they wanna relax and "take it easy"? None of these are mine or the remaining 2/6/22 players problem. Not to say I can't empathize but at the same time, we all signed up for get through whatever content. If real life is being such a burden you can't seem to play properly for whatever. Perhaps don't play a multi-player game where your performance impacts other players and their enjoyment.

For the sake of example, I used to have a friend back in Heavensward who arbitrarily decided to have "lazy days". She'd queue as a healer and basically do enough to keep the party alive but very little else because "I'm tired and lazy." We got into an argument when I happened to be MT for Dun Scaith and was in Deliverance, which meant she needed to heal more. She insisted I need to stay in Defiance as did one of her friends because "if the healer asks you to be in tank stance, you just do it." She was actively wanting to ruin my enjoyment for her own. Her entire line of reason falls under your "just wanting to chill" excuse. The problem is, that enjoyment for one person comes at the potential expense of others.

I also find it a pretty lame excuse, especially as I know several people working 9-12 hour days and don't decide, "I'm going to play poorly cause I'm tired" Maybe they miss a few Holys or clip a few GCDs. But they don't suddenly decide to pull three mobs or not DPS at all as a healer.

There isn't really any excuses for players like you mention here. Everything I've personally said in this thread has been based on the tank at least trying and not just being lazy. I know my performance in game certainly goes up and down depending on how tired I am and I do opt out of content if I know I'm too tired for it. I personally wouldn't hold it against someone though if they are not quite firing on all cylinders in an EX roulette or something though, as long as they are trying.

[Goji1639]

To be a bit blunt. Why am I supposed to care that someone hasn't slept well because their husband snores, they have a screaming child or they wanna relax and "take it easy"? None of these are mine or the remaining 2/6/22 players problem. Not to say I can't empathize but at the same time, we all signed up for get through whatever content. If real life is being such a burden you can't seem to play properly for whatever. Perhaps don't play a multi-player game where your performance impacts other players and their enjoyment.

I'm guessing they don't care about your reasons or preferences any more than you care about theirs. They'd prefer a lazy run for "reasons" and you'd prefer an ultra effort, fast as possible run for "reasons." Neither of you is right, wrong or out of line. Different playstyles and goals happen when different people are paired up randomly.

Too many people struggle to accept that, and just get worked up when they run into motivations that don't mirror their own. I know it's a cliche at this point; but if you don't like the random, disparate styles and goals that come with random groups then create your own groups and enforce your mindset.