Why did the Ascians never try to do these?

[KizuyaKatogami]

The real question we should be asking is, why didn’t Emet just kill Graha to obtain his memories on time travel, since we know ascians get their hosts memories. But that’s merely plot armor so

[Lauront]

The way time travel works in the setting probably means it is poorly suited to their aims. Yes, it can in some alternate reality effect a change, but they want the current one to be course-corrected. So at most it'd create some offshoot reality, and to migrate all the souls to it would then take an additional abundance of aether in all probability. So I am not too surprised they never really bothered with it.

It seems to me that interview is quite supportive of the point I was making. Emet wanted to see Azem in WoL, even while believing that to be impossible. What ultimately happened is exactly the ending he desired. Why I say we don't agree on this point is that you seem to characterize this as a failing of his schemes and of WoL "invalidating his headcanon of Azem". But considering what Yoshida says there, if Emet was disappointed by WoL's failure to contain the light, it follows that what he truly wanted was for what happened, to happen. Yoshi isn't saying he was disappointed afterwards, after all.



Killing WoL or even WoL joining him is probably not what he wanted, I think. Throughout the story he pushes WoL's buttons as hard as he can (ex at the ladder, after Innocence, before the Dying Gasp) to see if he can get WoL to give in, but in fact we know that he didn't want WoL to surrender. WoL agreeing to join Emet would be inconsistent with how Azem was in life, so that happening would just be another disappointment. He didn't want validation, he wanted to be proven wrong.

I'm more led to believe that it was an acceptable conclusion to him rather than him not wanting the WoL to side with him. It's subject to interpretation, and I do agree that the way he set up matters in Amaurot, plus his utter disappointment in his Garlean "son's" death (an interpretation supported by the poem in Ere our curtain falls) did suggest he was exhausted and wanted someone to pick up the torch, but none ever appeared.

His resolve and conviction to me seemed to be very genuine and supported by dialogue during the fight (where he asks who will be able to see their plan to fruition in his absence? - likely relating to his unique powers over the Underworld/Aetherial Sea being crucial to the task of awakening their dormant brethren in Zodiark), as well as various other materials in the game, like this. Moreover, it's clearer in the Japanese version that he had identified something special about the WoL's soul early on (some of the other versions misattribute this to the Oracle, IIRC.) So I believe that the soul rejoining and thus appearance of Azem for a moment (rather than the WoL's identity as Azem as such) took him by genuine surprise and led to him deciding to gamble it with a plan A and B (and however many more) already set in place. Had that act not taken him by surprise in that way, I could then perhaps agree that he had only one plan in mind, but in the end, it did, so either the WoL would prove themselves worthy to him to take on the burden of remembrance, or he would proceed with the plan and eventually restore the Source to its full glory.

I've little reason to believe that he did not genuinely wish for the completion of their plan, but for the exhaustion he endured in their toil. Even a victory now would still mean a long road ahead. Thus the contemplation of alternatives providing certain conditions were met. Hence Elidibus's decision to not draw on his memories seemed all the more sensible, to avoid distractions of this nature from forcing him away from completion of his task.

Emet-Selch's explanation seems to be that Zodiark didn't deliberately temper them after-the-fact at all. It was being brought into symbiosis with his energy during the summoning that bound them to his will and made him their one true god, due to the creation of a connection between themselves and the unprecedented psychic weight of the thing they were summoning. "It was unavoidable."

Using the French phrasing here just because it's so explicit.

Yes, and we also know at this point that alignment to the energy/element of the primal is part and parcel of tempering. He seems to be mocking the idea that it equates to the subjugation frequently observed alongside tempering - something which various recent developments have now confirmed comes down to the nature of the primal and its intention to temper in that way in the first place. What he is referring to appears to be that immersion in the primal's element/energy. It does obviously orient them to spreading the primal's element, but at the same time it is distancing this from the usual beast tribe styled tempering where there is enthrallment over and above that.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It seems to me that interview is quite supportive of the point I was making. Emet wanted to see Azem in WoL, even while believing that to be impossible. What ultimately happened is exactly the ending he desired. Why I say we don't agree on this point is that you seem to characterize this as a failing of his schemes and of WoL "invalidating his headcanon of Azem". But considering what Yoshida says there, if Emet was disappointed by WoL's failure to contain the light, it follows that what he truly wanted was for what happened, to happen. Yoshi isn't saying he was disappointed afterwards, after all.



Killing WoL or even WoL joining him is probably not what he wanted, I think. Throughout the story he pushes WoL's buttons as hard as he can (ex at the ladder, after Innocence, before the Dying Gasp) to see if he can get WoL to give in, but in fact we know that he didn't want WoL to surrender. WoL agreeing to join Emet would be inconsistent with how Azem was in life, so that happening would just be another disappointment. He didn't want validation, he wanted to be proven wrong.

I don’t believe it was the ending he desired at all. We see in his fight he isn’t exactly trying to lose, he’s fighting with all his might. He wanted to end us as we were in his way, his card cements this.

Was Hades always lurking beneath the surface of Emet-Selch? Or was this a case of transcendence, an aberrant being spawned from a crucible of ancient hope and prayer? Whichever the truth may be, this implacable immortal would never cease his struggle, never abandon the path which led to his fallen brethren's resurrection.

[Veloran]

I don’t believe it was the ending he desired at all. We see in his fight he isn’t exactly trying to lose, he’s fighting with all his might. He wanted to end us as we were in his way, his card cements this.

Was Hades always lurking beneath the surface of Emet-Selch? Or was this a case of transcendence, an aberrant being spawned from a crucible of ancient hope and prayer? Whichever the truth may be, this implacable immortal would never cease his struggle, never abandon the path which led to his fallen brethren's resurrection.

He's fighting with everything he has because he's torn about it. Despite his hopes and machinations he didn't think WoL would be able to do it, so confronted with it actually happening he's giving it all he's got. "Tomorrow's come too soon", you could say. In the finale cutscene we clearly see him telling himself not to surrender, for everything they'd lost and all his grief, so he pushes himself even further, and thereafter WoL finally defeats him and frees him of those burdens he was holding on to.

[Lauront]

He's fighting with everything he has because he's torn about it. Despite his hopes and machinations he didn't think WoL would be able to do it, so confronted with it actually happening he's giving it all he's got. "Tomorrow's come too soon", you could say. In the finale cutscene we clearly see him telling himself not to surrender, for everything they'd lost and all his grief, so he pushes himself even further, and thereafter WoL finally defeats him and frees him of those burdens he was holding on to.

I can agree with that, that he became conflicted about it.

[Anonymoose]

He seems to be mocking the idea that it equates to the subjugation <snip> distancing this from the usual beast tribe styled tempering where there is enthrallment

If so, can we at least acknowledge that he looks a little silly doing so after he and his friends called Zodiark - the thing they invented and summoned themselves - "the one true god" / "the absolute" / "the one truth in this world" - for <checks watch> eight years? Not to deny that he seems to have a comparatively mild case, mind you; Elidibus and Lahabrea said it far more often.

[Vyrerus]

A bit off topic but that Twitlonger Moose quoted got my brain running

disappointed from the very bottom of his heart".

You know, I'd chocked that line of Y'shtola's up to Y'shtola not actually knowing what's going on, but now that Yoshi-P draws my attention to it...

The fact of the matter is that the story since has drawn our attention primarily to Tempering, fixing Tempering, and what exactly it means to fix Tempering.

The last part of the struggle against Hades was Hades using the spell, "Life in Captivity" which I don't know what it's called in other languages, but it's where our ATE prompt is called, "Unleash Light." (The prompt under the ATE is, "Draw upon the strength of the Light within you!"

After that we're treated to a part that most people know very well, where we have the Blessing of Light as, "Light Beyond Darkness" buff, and the area floor takes on the Light, buffing all standing on it. Hades uses Dark Devours with voice lines before and as it casts, "Has the Warden's Light won free? No... Damn you! Damn your wretched Blessing!" -> <This is not the Warden's Light>

"I will extinguish the spark of your miserable lives!"

"That Light split the world, and every life upon it!"

"Our tragedy must never again come to pass!"

"By His Grace will Darkness reign over all!"

The Darkness becomes an impenetrable shroud, encompassing all... <Here, the Blessing of Light stops radiating from our bodies and the arena is engulfed in darkness>

"Death comes for Her servants." - Black Cauldron (enrage) begins casting.

"Abomination! You seek to shatter my soul?" <Hades is defeated>

The way the cutscene plays out, you know, but I do like to point out that when Hades pushes against the Light Blade Axe, Darkness actually does move over the WoL's position for a brief time.

Y'shtola's lines in English are, "His(Her) aether... it is... it is as it used to be."

"As a disciple of Zodiark, the Ascian was the Darkness to your Light. I can but assume that when you set your strength against his, the Light within you was spent."

Ryne reinforces the idea of Ardbert's Soul restoring ours, but Yoshi's focus is on Y'shtola's lines.

"...the Light within you was spent."

The next MSQ related trial is us facing off with Elidibus, and when he casts, "Ascendance" it shacks us in chains and throws us into the Rift. Instead of unleashing Light, our ATE prompt is called, "Will of Defiance."

Compare with some stuff from the past...

Y'shtola's line about, "His aether is, is as it used to be." is actually somewhat vague. As it used to be, when? The last time she saw us before being called or the way she remembers it from the first time she looked at us post her first return from the Lifestream? Because, if it's the latter, our Blessing was sealed by Midgardsormr at the time.

So perhaps, Yoshi-P is asking us to consider that we spent the Blessing of Light in our battle with Hades. We no longer have it, or it's waned so thoroughly that it must build back up over time. Or it's been sealed by impenetrable darkness, bringing us to equilibrium...

But then compare this info to her questioning of us, "When was the last time Hydaelyn spoke to you directly?" Which was actually in the Antitower through Minfilia as the Word of the Mother, but the game makes the distinction that it was at the end of the Dragonsong War when we reclaimed the Blessing...

Perhaps the WoL became so strong by the end of Stormblood that their own will superseded Hydaelyn's. The Blessing, the Tempering, remained until doused by Hades's Darkness.

Hydaelyn's next communication is via the spirit of Venat at Silvertear Lake. Venat is the Hydaelynian version of Elidibus... so it's actually arguable as to whether or not that was Hydaelyn's will as well. But it is quite telling that Hydaelyn lied to us in the Antitower, and only does Venat appear after we'd learned the truth. Rather than Hydaelyn being strong enough to relinquish Venat, as she did Minfilia in 3.5, I wager it is that Hydaelyn is too weak to hold onto anyone, anymore. Too weak to "Bless."

THE WORD OF THE MOTHER: "Seven times have they succeeded. Seven times hath the Darkness grown stronger. Seven times have I failed. The Ascians cannot be suffered to continue. This... this is my final..." <Crystal's Power is All But Spent>

[EaraGrace]

The real question we should be asking is, why didn’t Emet just kill Graha to obtain his memories on time travel, since we know ascians get their hosts memories. But that’s merely plot armor so

He’d be sorely disappointed then, as Graha despite being at the center of all that time and world travel is probably the person whose closest to it while not knowing how exactly it works. I doubt the Ironworks inheritors taught him the ins and outs of it, especially not enough to replicate it.

If anything, given Emets role in the Allagan Empire, he probably already knows as much as much the Exarch just from observation (though that’s not a dig against Graha this stuff is more than likely absurdly complicated).

[Catapult]

I'm not sure this adds much, but...
A vibe I've been getting is that while tempering may overpower your mind and priorities in certain ways, it doesn't change who someone is, their character as it were.

Tempered sylphs are still biased to mischief.
Sahagin are still violently protective of their hatching grounds.
The Kojin remain kleptomaniacs.

And so it follows that an Ascian of the convocation remains inclined to plan, govern and administer the world in its best interests. Emet was no exception, and it's important in understanding why he like each Ascian behaves in their own way with their own style - including Elidibus the Emissary (diplomat) and Lahabrea the Speaker (convenor/celebrant/master of ceremonies who would not shut up).

[Anonymoose]

Lahabrea ... who would not shut up

He has tenure.