Why did the Ascians never try to do these?

[Catapult]

Emet-Selch's comment that the Exarch opened "new worlds of possibility" suggests the Ascians believed it couldn't be done until he did it, thus suggesting that the Ascians are more than a little disinclined to innovation. I'd be curious as to why. A little "if it were possible we'd have known about it in our time" arrogance? A little "only Zodiark can bend time to His will" interference from the tempering? Who can say.

The difficulty I have with this is the fact that Courgevais, an ascian, provided the horn which would power Alexander's core. It means at least one ascian had to have been aware that a time-travelling-city primal was on the board. That they do not act on this more meaningfully requires assuming that the ascians are disorganized lone actors who don't talk to eachother about their plots.

...which they kind of are. But that disorganized? *sigh*

The best conclusion I can take from this is that Courgevais may very well be (or be a pawn of) a convocation member with their own autonomous plots. Meaning that they have thought of it, but deliberately neglected to tell Emet. And they still need dealing with.

[Anonymoose]

The difficulty I have with this is the fact that Courgevais, an ascian, provided the horn which would power Alexander's core.

As a Lominsan I am honor-bound to point out that this was Travanchet.

It means at least one ascian had to have been aware that a time-travelling-city primal was on the board.

I hate to lean on this argument because it's used against me every time I whine about Shadowbringers time travel throwing all the rules established by Alexander time travel out the window, but The Wings of Time and The Rift are very different methods with potentially-similar-looking results. They're different beasts when it comes to how time is traveled and the effect it has on the world(s) when it is done, so even if they knew about Alexander (whose own conclusion about itself was that it's difficult to use towards any specific goal where by the benefits outweigh the drawbacks), The Tycoon is still big news.

<snip>

To be honest I'm not sure where we disagree. Emet-Selch admitted these things. That his cooperation was whimsical. That he was trying to "understand what drives the hero of the Source. To determine if our goals are truly incompatible," because just trying to get rid of them wasn't working for anyone and he can just keep scheming if he wants. That he was still scheming "every hour of every day." And, when we show up, that his scheme he decided on isn't quite going to plan exactly because his invitation was only for "abomination, ripe with the power to bring about the world's annihilation."

Imho, offering cooperation with the stance of "I'll be spending the entire time I'm with you gathering intel and laying groundwork ensuring I can steamroll you if I want, you'd be wise to do the same, but hey, I hope we can be friends" is not exactly good faith (This is actually debatable! Some would say Emet-Selch was operating under limited sincerity of intention by admitting his bad faith, so it's kind of good faith up until he shot G'raha.) I agree with the stuff you said, too, though, so I don't it's at odds.

Arguably, Emet-Selch wrote a fan-fic and gave it a chance to play out but the Warrior of Light didn't validate his headcanon, lol.

[Catapult]

As a Lominsan I am honor-bound to point out that this was Travanchet.

As a Gridanian... yeah fair call mind derp.

I hate to lean on this argument because it's used against me every time I whine about Shadowbringers time travel throwing all the rules established by Alexander time travel out the window, but The Wings of Time and The Rift are very different methods with potentially-similar-looking results. They're different beasts when it comes to how time is traveled and the effect it has on the world(s) when it is done, so even if they knew about Alexander (whose own conclusion about itself was that it's difficult to use towards any specific goal where by the benefits outweigh the drawbacks), The Tycoon is still big news.

I stand by my opinion that the ascians, with their immortal perception of time, struggle to organize themselves on anything finer than a century-to-century schedule.

[Veloran]

To be honest I'm not sure where we disagree.

Arguably, Emet-Selch wrote a fan-fic and gave it a chance to play out but the Warrior of Light didn't validate his headcanon, lol.

We don't agree because I'm suggesting that Emet-Selch actually got his most preferred outcome and the one he put the most work into making possible.

After WoL defeats Innocence, Emet has effectively already completely won. He didn't need to do a single thing except wait, and WoL would turn into a Sin Eater and shift the aether of the First back into a state of rejoining. From the perspective you're saying he had, the game was up right then. Instead, he tells everyone where he could be found, thus allowing the Scions to track him down.

I'll stress again, he had absolutely no reason to do this. His "invitation for an abomination" simply makes no sense. Indeed his entire creation of the phantom Amaurot makes no sense from the standpoint you say he was acting from, because it served no purpose towards his plans for the rejoining. Rather, he created the city, the elaborate scenario of the Final Days, and the Azem stone all for the purpose of informing WoL and pushing them to see if they could overcome and be true to the person Azem was. Even Hythlodaeus' creation, which he suggests was just an accident, was clearly calculated to give more information about the sundering to WoL and reveal their connection to Ardbert, something which Emet had likely already seen in advance. And we can take this to be the case because the reveal of the stone shows that Hythlodaeus was something Emet orchestrated rather than an offminded mistake. WoL passing the test and not being broken by everything, therefore allowing Emet to finally give up his burdens and entrust the future to someone he could recognize as his old friend, was the ending he most wanted but the one he believed in the least.

If the plan for the rejoinings was Emet's 12,000 year-old painstakingly scripted dramatic play, what he ultimately ended up seeing acted out on the stage was in fact his impossible guilty-pleasure fanfic where everything miraculously came together at the 11th hour.

[Anonymoose]

We don't agree because I'm suggesting that Emet-Selch actually got his most preferred outcome

For whatever it's worth, apparently Yoshida commented on this in Famitsu this week and (while he maintains everyone is entitled to their own interpretation), Emet-Selch's true feelings were a desire to be proven wrong - to see that the Warrior of Light would overcome the "abomination" plan and prove they really can make the impossible possible, really can bring anyone together. Emet-Selch wanted to believe he really was Azem, or at least Azem-like, and would give him reason to re-evaluate the sundered. Instead, Emet-Selch saw that the Warrior of Light was nothing but another sundered being - unable to contain the aether of the Lightwardens, which any Ancient would have been able to do with ease, and he was "disappointed from the very bottom of his heart".

Again, I think we're not saying much, if anything, mutually-exclusive here (or at least I'm still not really getting it). We're shining a spotlight on different things to explain different things; I see that. I touched only on the vague "he wanted Azem to return to the fold" / "he wanted to see if goals were truly incompatible" / "he was back-up scheming" while exploring the logic of the schemes within schemes, and you had something much more focused on and specific about the former and what that means to you, but both jibe with what Yoshida's saying here, no? Emet-Selch, despite the schemes within schemes to advance the calamity all other things being equal, was disappointed that the Warrior of Light didn't validate his Azem headcanon, and moreover seemed to take on the most Azem-like silhouette at the same moment he stood resolved to kill him.

[Vyrerus]

A bit off topic but that Twitlonger Moose quoted got my brain running

disappointed from the very bottom of his heart".

You know, I'd chocked that line of Y'shtola's up to Y'shtola not actually knowing what's going on, but now that Yoshi-P draws my attention to it...

The fact of the matter is that the story since has drawn our attention primarily to Tempering, fixing Tempering, and what exactly it means to fix Tempering.

The last part of the struggle against Hades was Hades using the spell, "Life in Captivity" which I don't know what it's called in other languages, but it's where our ATE prompt is called, "Unleash Light." (The prompt under the ATE is, "Draw upon the strength of the Light within you!"

After that we're treated to a part that most people know very well, where we have the Blessing of Light as, "Light Beyond Darkness" buff, and the area floor takes on the Light, buffing all standing on it. Hades uses Dark Devours with voice lines before and as it casts, "Has the Warden's Light won free? No... Damn you! Damn your wretched Blessing!" -> <This is not the Warden's Light>

"I will extinguish the spark of your miserable lives!"

"That Light split the world, and every life upon it!"

"Our tragedy must never again come to pass!"

"By His Grace will Darkness reign over all!"

The Darkness becomes an impenetrable shroud, encompassing all... <Here, the Blessing of Light stops radiating from our bodies and the arena is engulfed in darkness>

"Death comes for Her servants." - Black Cauldron (enrage) begins casting.

"Abomination! You seek to shatter my soul?" <Hades is defeated>

The way the cutscene plays out, you know, but I do like to point out that when Hades pushes against the Light Blade Axe, Darkness actually does move over the WoL's position for a brief time.

Y'shtola's lines in English are, "His(Her) aether... it is... it is as it used to be."

"As a disciple of Zodiark, the Ascian was the Darkness to your Light. I can but assume that when you set your strength against his, the Light within you was spent."

Ryne reinforces the idea of Ardbert's Soul restoring ours, but Yoshi's focus is on Y'shtola's lines.

"...the Light within you was spent."

The next MSQ related trial is us facing off with Elidibus, and when he casts, "Ascendance" it shacks us in chains and throws us into the Rift. Instead of unleashing Light, our ATE prompt is called, "Will of Defiance."

Compare with some stuff from the past...

Y'shtola's line about, "His aether is, is as it used to be." is actually somewhat vague. As it used to be, when? The last time she saw us before being called or the way she remembers it from the first time she looked at us post her first return from the Lifestream? Because, if it's the latter, our Blessing was sealed by Midgardsormr at the time.

So perhaps, Yoshi-P is asking us to consider that we spent the Blessing of Light in our battle with Hades. We no longer have it, or it's waned so thoroughly that it must build back up over time. Or it's been sealed by impenetrable darkness, bringing us to equilibrium...

But then compare this info to her questioning of us, "When was the last time Hydaelyn spoke to you directly?" Which was actually in the Antitower through Minfilia as the Word of the Mother, but the game makes the distinction that it was at the end of the Dragonsong War when we reclaimed the Blessing...

Perhaps the WoL became so strong by the end of Stormblood that their own will superseded Hydaelyn's. The Blessing, the Tempering, remained until doused by Hades's Darkness.

Hydaelyn's next communication is via the spirit of Venat at Silvertear Lake. Venat is the Hydaelynian version of Elidibus... so it's actually arguable as to whether or not that was Hydaelyn's will as well. But it is quite telling that Hydaelyn lied to us in the Antitower, and only does Venat appear after we'd learned the truth. Rather than Hydaelyn being strong enough to relinquish Venat, as she did Minfilia in 3.5, I wager it is that Hydaelyn is too weak to hold onto anyone, anymore. Too weak to "Bless."

THE WORD OF THE MOTHER: "Seven times have they succeeded. Seven times hath the Darkness grown stronger. Seven times have I failed. The Ascians cannot be suffered to continue. This... this is my final..." <Crystal's Power is All But Spent>

[Dawn_FF14]

For whatever it's worth, apparently Yoshida commented on this in Famitsu this week and (while he maintains everyone is entitled to their own interpretation), Emet-Selch's true feelings were a desire to be proven wrong - to see that the Warrior of Light would overcome the "abomination" plan and prove they really can make the impossible possible, really can bring anyone together. Emet-Selch wanted to believe he really was Azem, or at least Azem-like, and would give him reason to re-evaluate the sundered. Instead, Emet-Selch saw that the Warrior of Light was nothing but another sundered being - unable to contain the aether of the Lightwardens, which any Ancient would have been able to do with ease, and he was "disappointed from the very bottom of his heart".

Again, I think we're not saying much, if anything, mutually-exclusive here (or at least I'm still not really getting it). We're shining a spotlight on different things to explain different things; I see that. I touched only on the vague "he wanted Azem to return to the fold" / "he wanted to see if goals were truly incompatible" / "he was back-up scheming" while exploring the logic of the schemes within schemes, and you had something much more focused on and specific about the former and what that means to you, but both jibe with what Yoshida's saying here, no? Emet-Selch, despite the schemes within schemes to advance the calamity all other things being equal, was disappointed that the Warrior of Light didn't validate his Azem headcanon, and moreover seemed to take on the most Azem-like silhouette at the same moment he stood resolved to kill him.

I’ve been wondering about what Emet wanted from WoL since the beginning of SHB. After watching the cutscenes from Eden raids, I think I have an idea now. He was planning for WoL to take over Mitron’s task — prevent the First from turning into full Light, thus becoming useless like the Thirteenth. The WoL absorbing all the Light was what Emet wanted too. If WoL can control the Light, it probably proves to him that Azem is back. It was a win-win for Emet. He was just not foreseeing that we could actually kill him, which leads me to further speculate.
- Is Ardbert a mere fragment or is he rejoined with other fragments already?
- What is that light axe Ardbert sealed Mitron and we killed Emet with?