Former WoW player: Suggested changes to FFXIV Raiding end-game

[TaleraRistain]

You're going to hit a hard ceiling on #4 so long as there is a MSQ for the devs to consider. Raid gear cannot go above a certain strength because the gear gap would get far too wide from that obtained in casual content and would trivialize the MSQ for raiders, so those in that gear would come and complain it was too easy. In other games where this happened, the developers listened to those who said it was too easy and put even the casual/solo content out of the realm of those who only interacted with that content.

SE needs to maintain that balance so raid gear can be better for a time, but then catch up gear will come out to put everyone back on a more even footing for the next leg of the MSQ. This is one way that XIV varies very much from other MMOs and one thing that a lot of us like about it since we have seen the way it goes bad in other games.

[Ath192]

OK, let me rephrase that. It would have the most impact in savage, where it would also be more annoying.

I started raiding during coil, and coil is still my favorite raid series. No other raid has measured up to it for me. The trash pulls and exploration bits aren't what made coil great. They really only added to the atmosphere, which they have used solo instances and secondary areas for now.

And your right, my taste doesn't determine the games direction. The overall taste does. And you know what everyone did? They invented ways to skip trash in raids. Sac pulls, completely ignoring them all together in t10, etc.


Savage and ultimate exist for those who want a challenge, as does solo potd and hoh

Atmosphere is huge, and you know, if it was your favorite raid series maybe they were on to something, trash pulls included, because they were weaving in a story with atmosphere and all instead of just thinking about boss fight after boss fight. The evidence, by your own words, points to the fact that your favorite raid series included elements of exploration, whereas, the other raid series did not. I can also tell you they probably went about designing coils in a different way because of said dungeon elements to it, leading to better content. ITs okay for people to sac pulls, and ignore them all together once they are on farm mode, but the first time they went in there I can probably tell you they didn't do that and they went in with a sense of awe.

Savage is kind of easy, Ultimate is about right. But they are no scapegoats to make the rest of the game a joke. So likewise, they can introduce more challenging content for those that enjoy it, while probably also creating easier modes for those that don't want to bother, seems like a win-win to me, and since rewards wouldn't change, I see no point in your argument that only seeks to limit what devs do instead of encourage more diversity.

Plenty of these posts come up almost on a weekly basis, so a good chunk of the playerbase is dissatisfied, and noone here is suggesting getting rid of casual content so I don't know what your beef is against people who want challenge outside of a few select raids.

[ItMe]

1) Shadowbringers dungeons introduced interruptable casts to a lot of mobs which make big pulls a lot harder to heal if the tank doesn't identify the right enemy from the crowd and interrupt it. There is one situation in The Twinning where two adds can be interrupted so your only option is to interrupt one and stun the other. This makes it a lot easier to heal, especially when it released and people were not as well geared. Both as a tank and a healer in that dungeon I can say that pull can be tricky and wipe sometimes. So saying there are not mobs you could prioritize quickly is not true.

I like the frogmen in Don Mheg that try and buff the trees, and the White Mages of Light in The Heroes Gauntlet that try and cast protect, or those sneaky adds in Mt Gulg that try and hit you with those interruptable heavy hitting AoEs and punish you for trying to autopilot a wall to wall pull.
You're right, there are a lot of nifty examples of this in Shadow Bringers and I hope they play around with it more going forward.

[TaleraRistain]

I like the frogmen in Don Mheg that try and buff the trees, and the White Mages of Light in The Heroes Gauntlet that try and cast protect, or those sneaky adds in Mt Gulg that try and hit you with those interruptable heavy hitting AoEs and punish you for trying to autopilot a wall to wall pull.
You're right, there are a lot of nifty examples of this in Shadow Bringers and I hope they play around with it more going forward.

I both love these and hate them. Because some are like that one tether mob in Amaurot who severely gimps a healer's ability to heal. Groups just wall to wall pull and don't focus it down, which puts a significant amount of stress on the healer. And they get blamed when they can't keep up because their heals are gimped.

I think unfortunately the speedrun mentality is going to ruin a lot of those nifty additions for us.

[Vyrerus]

1) Shadowbringers dungeons introduced interruptable casts to a lot of mobs which make big pulls a lot harder

No, it didn't. These have always been in the game, they were just harder to notice before, and far harder to notice in the current state of the game due to being overgeared/leveled/potencied.

In the very first dungeon in the game, Sastasha, there is an Orobon monster inbetween the clams/crabs/firelights. It buffs monster attack unless stunned repeatedly and killed. However, the effect is so low, and not many newbies are mega pulling, that it isn't a real threat. It's still there, though.

In Copperbell Mines the first boss has a tank cooldown which can be interrupted. Again, it's not much of a boss, especially these days, but it's there.

Skipping a lot of the early dungeons, because the same stuff that applied to the Orobon in Sastasha will apply in a lot of cases.

Pharos Sirius has several problem monsters that used to need interrupts, and are still problematic if they don't get them/don't die fast. The Elbsts in the first waterway will eventually splash everyone with vulnerability up that is unavoidable unless they are killed quickly/stunned repeatedly.
The Zombie Barbers will heal monsters in the pull unless killed quickly/stunned repeatedly.
The Corrupted Sprites cast Banishga III. It's an AOE spell that deals upwards of 3000~3500 damage to your whole party unless it's interrupted. It's not much when you're rocking 6k+ HP on everyone, but when the dungeon was new, HP levels ranged from 3~4.5k for DPS/Heals and 5~8k for tanks(Thanks Defiance). Letting that spell go off was often a death sentence for somebody.
The Bhoots cast Paralyze III, AOE paralysis that's quite potent.
The Flans cast Divide or whatever, that spawns more flans onto the pull, intermingled at the same time with Corrupted Sprites.

This was the apex dungeon of 2.1, and it drew so many complaints from the playerbase, because it also had hard bosses that also had interruptible/stunnable skills, that they nerfed it into the ground.

But even disregarding it, I could go on forever into detail about every dungeon and the "problem" monsters in each pull. It's just more noticeable in Shadowbringers, for you, for some reason.

[kaynide]

Rather than instanced, I would like to see more open world dungeons. Stuff akin to treasure hunting or general exploration with traps/door puzzles..but ultimately open world.

Anyone who's played FFXI, I'm talking the beastman citadels.

[ForctyusGold]

well you can always join any random group in pf and help them to clear their wished duty. i think it can be called challenging. because i think there is no hope for any changes youre writing.

[Vyrerus]

Disclaimer

1. I agree largely, but the thing about dungeons is that they can only really remain challenging if people don't improve at the game. Given that Savage raids and Extreme trials are much more complex than dungeons are allowed to be, if you complete those things then dungeons will always be easy for you, no matter how they are designed. Any new designs that get implemented will grow stale, so the dev team probably feels like they are at an impasse with them. Quite unfortunate imo, as dungeons are one of my favorite things.

2. There wasn't real exploration in old dungeons. Just wrong paths/dead ends that didn't yield any sort of nice reward for the trouble. A quick dart in or out of a room. Since they refuse to add any sort of real loot to those paths, people stopped doing them. It would have been better if they'd added mini bosses, like dungeon bosses, which rewarded some sort of accessory drops or belts.
You also have to acknowledge that as you grow older, the more likely it is that you see the puppetmaster pulling the strings. Your sense of wonder and scale go down with the more you learn and critically analyze the content you consume. I would be surprised if you ever felt the same sense of wonder ever again, as your nostalgia remembers it so fondly for you, while your presently cynical brain dissects the new things seam to seam to cross stitch, comparing it with an idealized memory that actually never was.

3. They don't do big gear checks for Savage, because when they did they literally killed the common raiding scene. Back in HW, Gordias took 3~4 weeks for world first types to beat, because it was mathematically impossible due to enrage timers vs. boss HP vs. DPS possible at the time in i190 gear sets. Even world first groups found they needed the i200 weapons purchased with the new weekly capped tomes. Gordias and Midas Savage were so hard that most groups, even committed raiders, couldn't beat all 4 fights in either.
Funnily enough, what you suggest is why we got a Savage raid in the first place. Back in 2.2 when they added in Second Coil of Bahamut, the world first types were able to beat it in a week or so with entry level gear, a mix of i90/i70 crafted/i100 bought/i110 drops. This made the dev team release Savage Second Coil, which only offered titles in the way of reward, and were specifically designed to counter player developed stratagems. I'd rather not see people with more time than me to play the game get to rub it in my face that much more when they inevitably beat these scaled up raids and ride those new mounts you suggest. I think the current formula is fine.

4. There's a difference between boring and simple. FFXIV gearing is just complex enough that it matters if you want to be cutting edge, but simple enough that it doesn't matter on a casual level. Set bonuses would be a bad idea, as they cause people to try and force old gear into new content, which usually foists more responsibility on healers. Leads to increased complaining and more arguments as people wanting their ideal set to be catered to in every party they join, rather than use things with lower DPS that don't need to be catered too.
Blue Mage proves that they can create jobs that are flexible on gearing, depending on what you're doing with them, as it has a DPS set that's your standard Crit/Det/Direct sort of thing, and then a Tank/Heals/DPS set that's Spell Speed/Det due to the nature of many spells being DOTs and other spells having their long recasts shorted by Spell Speed additions.
Course, no matter how you slice it, a substat like Critical Hit will almost always be best because it has no diminished returns, affects everything in all builds, and adds a huge portion of damage that's essentially the same thing as a damage proc, adding damage in with no other way to get it.

Anywho, overall I understand where you're coming from, but your ideas aren't really that great when scrutinized.

[Sotaris]

"Former WoW player: Suggested changes to FFXIV Raiding end-game"

Careful.... you'd get DT's if you dare suggest a better end-game.

[Shurrikhan]

IF they EVER EVER listen to you on point number 4 I promise you that is the day I quit FF14 for good. You quit WoW in Cata but some of us kept playing passed that and watched Blizzard listen to guys like you who wanted to spice up gear because they get bored and want to make the end game a living hell for the other 99% of the playerbase who does not raid log.

In what way does having additional dungeon difficulties beyond the one-and-done faceroll as per OP's point #4... (1) have anything to do with gear, given that the rewards suggested were some "additional tomestones, titles, minions, and mounts", let alone (2) "make the end game a living hell for the other 99% of the playerbase who does not raid log"?

EDIT: Thanks, Milkie! My mistake.

Though, I'm even more confused, then, as to how having more secondary stat choices than merely Crit > SkS (min margin) > DHit > Det > SkS would somehow be the bane of 99% of the playerbase's existence.

She's not asking for Shards of Dominion/Domination here, just some of the fun choice that's apparently barred, atm, from all but side-content.