Should Dark Arts Come Back in 6.0? If so, What Should the Skill Do?

[shao32]

Perhaps Dark Arts should be given a cooldown? Maybe have a recast timer like TBN (15 seconds). It'll still cost MP of course, but having a 15sec recast timer would solve any worry for Dark Arts spam. Heck, I wouldn't mind Dark Arts and TBN working in conjunction with each other.

• Both skills would share the same recast timer.
• Dark Arts would be used for offense while TBN is used for defense
• Dark Arts would still enhance a few skills like it did back in 3.0 and 4.0.
• TBN would work the same as 5.0. If the shield broke, it grants "Dark Arts". But instead of giving the player a free Edge or Flood of Shadow, you are free to use a Dark Arts enhanced skill. This rewards players for playing well defensively.

I don't know. I never played HW or StB DRK, but I still want to contribute to the discussion. I really would like to see the real Dark Arts come back.

If you allow me i see a crucial flaw in your sugestion and it's both sharing a recast timer, the problem with that is you wanna use DA on recast otherwise holding it would cost you dps overtime but keeping it on recast means you aren't allowed to use TBN for that amount of time and that can be crucial on certain moments leading a poor desing where the player is forced to 1. hold DA/TBN X seconds for the defensive shield bcs a TB is coming or 2. the player is catched without being able to use TBN bcs is on recast thanks to DA, this will make DRK a default OT so they aren't in that situation as much as posible.

I recomend remove the sharing recast sugestion and instead make them both cost the same resource, could be MP or a new reworked blood gauge as is need so much so it would be about managing then with the ability to storage one for proper TBN usage.
The second recomendation whould be give them 2 charges, maybe 3 for the same purpose and could be more easy to implement but could rest the flavour i see you are trying to show.

for the rest is a fine sugestion ^^

[currentlemon]

snip

Thank you for the reply. So, if we take everything into consideration (w/ Shao's and Anahlise's ideas), the new Dark Arts in Endwalker should be the following:

• Dark Arts and TBN would work in conjunction with each other.
• The two skills would share the same MP Cost. If TBN costs 3000MP in 5.0, so would Dark Arts. Both skills would have a recast timer of 15secs to prevent spamming.
• The two skills with have 2 charges. Perhaps three charges at level 90? This is so that DRK will not be stuck as an OT during 8-main raids and trials.
• Dark Arts would be as an offensive toolkit, while TBN would be used defensively.
• Dark Arts would work similarly in 3.0 and 4.0. Use it to buff DRK's weapon skills
• TBN would work similarly to 5.0 TBN. However, instead of granting a free Edge or Flood of Shadow upon a broken shield, it will be a defensive buff of some sort.
• The defensive buff from a broken TBN shield could be a mitigation bonus or HP restore.

If we take everything into consideration:

- Dark Arts will be earned at level 42.
- TBN is earned at level 70 w/ two charges.
- A trait is earned at level 70 making the skill have two charges.
? At level 90, a new trait is earned, giving DRK three charges on both Dark Arts & TBN.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

personally, I regard the Dark Knight's resources as: MP = Dark Magic, BlackBlood gauge = Blood Magic, so I think and agree that Dark Arts and The Blackest Night aught to cost MP.
on a different scale, I am less confident about the skills' CDs to be one every 15 seconds charges, but that could work out, if it matches with the Dark Knight's MP restore rate... if we consider the duration of The Blackest Knight, that would make it possible to use it often, but not immediate, but this does pose a issue with Dark Arts. How should the duration and CD of Dark Arts compare?, whether a basic CD or a charges CD.

assume for a moment that the duration and CD of Dark Arts are both 15 seconds, for a example... It used to be duration 10 seconds, but I think that the Dark Knight's new Dark Arts should have a increase to 15 seconds duration, while the question becomes.. what should the CD be?
I agree that the CDs should be separate, as Shao has a good point, and if we go with the charges idea, this means that charges can be used one after another, to bypass CD limit, at the cost of a longer wait after.

one example is The Blackest Night: duration 7 seconds, charge CD 15 seconds, means that The Blackest Night could be used the moment it ends, if the Dark Knight has two charges, and that would be 14 seconds to 15 seconds, but then a 16 seconds wait, to do that again, where 16 seconds is longer than 15 seconds...

I think that the CD of Dark Arts, if we go with charges, should be similar to that, or else Dark Arts would just be a constant that the Dark Night uses on CD and keeps active all the time, while the base to decide CD would be duration 15 seconds, instead of duration 7 seconds.
Off of the top of my head, the Dark Arts charge CD could be.. perhaps.. 30 seconds, so two charges in a row would be 15 seconds x 2 = 30 seconds to 30 seconds; the Dark Knight would have a third(one) Dark Arts ready, but also a 30 second wait, to get that second charge and do a double Dark Arts again, while that 30 seconds wait is twice the 15 seconds duration.

[Kalaam]

I really like where this conversation is going.

[Garnix]

Thank you for the reply. So, if we take everything into consideration (w/ Shao's and Anahlise's ideas), the new Dark Arts in Endwalker should be the following:

• Dark Arts and TBN would work in conjunction with each other.
• The two skills would share the same MP Cost. If TBN costs 3000MP in 5.0, so would Dark Arts. Both skills would have a recast timer of 15secs to prevent spamming.
• The two skills with have 2 charges. Perhaps three charges at level 90? This is so that DRK will not be stuck as an OT during 8-main raids and trials.
• Dark Arts would be as an offensive toolkit, while TBN would be used defensively.
• Dark Arts would work similarly in 3.0 and 4.0. Use it to buff DRK's weapon skills
• TBN would work similarly to 5.0 TBN. However, instead of granting a free Edge or Flood of Shadow upon a broken shield, it will be a defensive buff of some sort.
• The defensive buff from a broken TBN shield could be a mitigation bonus or HP restore.

If we take everything into consideration:

- Dark Arts will be earned at level 42.
- TBN is earned at level 70 w/ two charges.
- A trait is earned at level 70 making the skill have two charges.
? At level 90, a new trait is earned, giving DRK three charges on both Dark Arts & TBN.

So are we suggesting to make TBN a DPS loss (using MPs for a defensive buff, with no way to get those MP back for what you would normally use offensively)?
Wouldn't people just stop using it then?...Just like PLD's Clemency (well clemency is worse because it is also on the GCD and it uses the requiescat stacks etc, but it is the same idea).
That would be a bit sad considering it is probably the most appreciated part of the current DRK kit...


IMO, there is one thing that needs to be improved in the current kit: DRK should get a little bit more control on the living shadow instead of it being a very cool glorified DoT that you basically press on cooldown.
So maybe this new "Dark Arts" should be related to that somehow.
I don't know, make it an oGCD that just costs 1000 MP and make it a buff that you can stack up to, let's say 10, and that would increase the power of the shadow.
Like, for each stack the shadow will weave an additional powerful spell, and if you have ten it will cast a giant nuke on top of it before disappearing.
Personally, I always felt that Dark Arts was a bit underwhelming back then...I didn't really feel rewarded for using it. Bigger numbers are just not what I was looking for on my DRK...
The animation was cool though!

You could also link it to TBN. If your shield breaks, get 3 stacks of Dark Arts instead of having a free flood/edge of shadow. This way you also have a bit of management, as you'll need to make sure to be below 8 stacks before using TBN. So there would be a bit of min-maxing potential I guess.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

So are we suggesting to make TBN a DPS loss (using MPs for a defensive buff, with no way to get those MP back for what you would normally use offensively)?
Wouldn't people just stop using it then?...Just like PLD's Clemency (well clemency is worse because it is also on the GCD and it uses the requiescat stacks etc, but it is the same idea).
That would be a bit sad considering it is probably the most appreciated part of the current DRK kit...

Hmn... This concern again. I have made mention of it several times, in that the issue is a fundamental design flaw in the game itself, the "only damage matters and damage is more important than aught else" BS nonsense that FFXIV has going... whether or not a defensive action is a offensive loss, should be irrelevant, as defensive actions are made for defense, not made for damage output, but we do need to design actions around this fundamental design flaw of FFXIV, though...

How about.. remove the MP cost from The Blackest Night, and it is just on charges CD?, since defensive actions are absolute not allowed to have "costs"...

Side-note: I am not annoyed with you, I am exasperated with FFXIV, so I apologize if my response seems pointed like a blade.

[Garnix]

Hmn... snip

No offense taken. I somewhat agree with you on that. But since it is a flaw that they will probably never find a way to resolve, I'd rather deal with it.

(In the past I suggested for them to put an offensive ability on PLD shield oath, and people told me that Sheltron would then never be used anymore...and they are right...)

In this specific case though, I really think that having TBN costs MP and then "refunding" them for an offensive skill is what makes the skill special and rewarding.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

In this specific case though, I really think that having TBN costs MP and then "refunding" them for an offensive skill is what makes the skill special and rewarding.

mnh, so I read... my personal perspective is that I see the design of The Blackest Night's if-broken bonus, and its mockery of Dark Arts, as a irritating liability and bad design, so I do not like it, but opinions have little worth, and I also know that the design in question functions well enough, so I much doubt that it would ever be to change, any way...

On a different scale.. it would be best, in my opinion, that if the old Dark Arts action were to return, it needs to be separate from The Blackest Night, and the "Dark Arts" of The Blackest Night, could just be re-named... Perhaps.. Dark Rune, Dark Sigil, Dark Seal... If the two actions were to have a connection, alike to the earlier mention of the shared CD issue, it would be naught more than a liability that would ruin either one of the actions, or ruin both actions.

[currentlemon]

I've updated the first post to include all the changes that we've discussed in the past several posts.

In regards to TBN's shield breaking, perhaps we can come up with a compromise to those who like the free Edge/Flood of Shadow. Here is my suggestion should TBN's shield breaks:

- A 15% Mitigation Bonus is rewarded to the player
- Scratch my second proposition. Blood Weapon already helps us with MP regen. An MP Regen buff is rewarded to the player.
- The player earns a certain amount of blood gauge. Let's do 30 for now.

[Kalaam]

I think the blood gauge gain is the best way to do it, it's a pure gain of ressource when used well.
Then we'd need some more abilities using the Blood Gauge, maybe some defensive one too.