After nearly a decade, im giving this game another chance.

[Nothv13]

with proper game design, there should be no such thing as a "bad build" and im sure yoshida's team have proven themself that they arent bad.

No game in history has accomplished this. None. The ones that appear to are so easy or builds matter so little to your output that you could have no build at all to succeed, making you wonder why evne have them in teh first place.

[DwightParkman]

How should this work in a large scale mmo context from a game play perspective? From a story perspective FFXIV has plenty to offer here, but you largely skipped that part...

it seems you straight up skipped reading my posts, because if you didnt, you wouldve seen that i wrote that i listened to videos explaining the story during work. my time is very limited, i dont have the time to do all the story between 2.0 and shadowbringers, let alone the leveling.

[DwightParkman]

No game in history has accomplished this. None.

while i feel that is strictly just your opinion, why is that so important? world of warcraft even at its highest subscription ever during WOTLK (i think 12 million active subs?) very much had talent builds, and alot of them. maybe just maybe having this no tinkering philosophy is just spike stealing the keys to the ff14 school bus, therefore we have no choice but to just accept it as that?

[DPZ2]

based on the fact that people are still saying the whole "illusion" argument just tells me that this game only caters to the "spike" players. this is a game only made for that singular group.

Of course, you left out that third Magic-the-Gathering psychographic profile. The profiles were designed by the R&D department specifically to describe Magic players, and may not apply at all to MMO players. Magic cards allow for endless 'tinkering' so to speak, MMOs are not flexible in that way.

That being said, given the descriptions of each that I've read in articles written 15 years ago, I'd probably assign the majority of players of FFXIV as "Timmy". Per Mark Rosewater "Timmy wants to experience something. Timmy plays Magic because he enjoys the feeling he gets when he plays. What that feeling is will vary from Timmy to Timmy, but what all Timmies have in common is that they enjoy the visceral experience of playing. As you will see, Johnny and Spike have a destination in mind when they play. Timmy is in it for the journey."

Again, please note that these psychographic profiles (timmy, johnny, spike) can be applied to Magic the Gathering card players, and were never meant to describe video game players in any way, shape, or form. Your mileage may vary.

[Nothv13]

while i feel that is strictly just your opinion, why is that so important? world of warcraft even at its highest subscription ever during WOTLK (i think 12 million active subs?) very much had talent builds, and alot of them. maybe just maybe having this no tinkering philosophy is just spike stealing the keys to the ff14 school bus, therefore we have no choice but to just accept it as that?

It is important because it takes time and man power. Both hard limited aspects. The more tinkering you allow, the more you need and it is exponential. This can fundamentally hurt the game as you have to keep pulling resources from other areas to keep up wit the needed testing and balancing to make it so there are no bad builds.

In Wrath, a huge amount of the talent builds were so bad you'd be kicked by casual groups. Then on the flip side you had builds that were so good, it would invalidate any other build at the high end. Neither is good for balance or health of the game.

[DwightParkman]

Of course, you left out that third Magic-the-Gathering psychographic profile. The profiles were designed by the R&D department specifically to describe Magic players, and may not apply at all to MMO players. Magic cards allow for endless 'tinkering' so to speak, MMOs are not flexible in that way.

That being said, given the descriptions of each that I've read in articles written 15 years ago, I'd probably assign the majority of players of FFXIV as "Timmy". Per Mark Rosewater "Timmy wants to experience something. Timmy plays Magic because he enjoys the feeling he gets when he plays. What that feeling is will vary from Timmy to Timmy, but what all Timmies have in common is that they enjoy the visceral experience of playing. As you will see, Johnny and Spike have a destination in mind when they play. Timmy is in it for the journey."

Again, please note that these psychographic profiles (timmy, johnny, spike) can be applied to Magic the Gathering card players, and were never meant to describe video game players in any way, shape, or form. Your mileage may vary.

i mean.... you're quite good at paraphrasing ill give ya that, but based off all the strict immovable statements im seeing from this thread alone, these are statements only a spike player would say. "illusions of customization" "the only thing that matters is the most damage" and my personal favorite "if you arent meta, ill kick you"

sorry but how is any of that okay to anyone? i think people might not realise it, but the ff14 core philosophy is pretty toxic on its on principles from just those 3 quotes alone

[DwightParkman]

anyways this thread was simply made because i wanted to give FF14 players an idea of what a johnny player's take is on the game, is a great game. but they really should consider the prospect of adding content appealing to different camps of players, and not just the "spike" player camp. it would bring them alot more users to the game, and should also consider further that alot of wow players are moving to ff14, which will also be confused about no inclusion of a staple mmo concept. strike while the iron is hot or so to speak.

if you dont like the idea of class builds, remember that you can always stick to the meta build. dont want to play with tinker build johnny players? then dont play with them. in the end you would realize its a silly thing to have hang-ups on as its a game made to be fun, and not a second job

[Kes13a]

i mean.... you're quite good at paraphrasing ill give ya that, but based off all the strict immovable statements im seeing from this thread alone, these are statements only a spike player would say. "illusions of customization" "the only thing that matters is the most damage" and my personal favorite "if you arent meta, ill kick you"

sorry but how is any of that okay to anyone? i think people might not realise it, but the ff14 core philosophy is pretty toxic on its on principles from just those 3 quotes alone

I started playing mmos with Star Wars Galaxies, which, in the beginning, before WoW, was very much a build your own, yes, there were metas, and people used those. it was a wonderful game in some regards for character progression. after WoW and its resounding success every mmo wanted to be them. the early days of WoW were the start of your "spike" player. which, the way you use the term seem to be very much akin to the "hardcore vs casual" drama baits only using a different term.

like it or not, "spike" players move the money in. in general, people want to play, not mess around with what works best for them. you single out ffxiv as the only mmo that does this and is thus toxic. well, here is a news flash.. ANY mmo where you have to choose a class to start does this. "timmy" "spike" h"hardcore" "casual" who cares, we are all game players and the reality is, if you dont like a game, stop playing it. I am not telling you to leave, but the fundamental game design has not exactly changed since you last played.

we play what entertains us usually, what we have fun with. thats going to be true for everyone, and not something that is exactly the same person to person. I suspect a lot of people would love more skill customization, but just as many would not. corporations, game developers, are in a business. niche games do not get a huge population base, and there are more people out there who just want to log in and play than figure out numbers. thats how it is, if thats toxic, well, blame humanity....

[Eric_Riot]

I too dislike the combat in FFXIV. It's too mechanical and robotic. I prefer GW2 Combat, more fluid, the "Builds" are flexible and customizable, and their WvWvW is outstanding.

That being said I just adore FFXIV, the graphics are so much better, the outfits and emotes are just light-years better than GW2. Yes GW2 Has better "Outfit storage & unlock" system. But GW2 is SUPER redundant, even with how customizable the builds are. I know they have an MSQ but it's so lame and boring I couldn't even name one hero, or what the actual story is, or even care to find out.

FFXIV has so much content that the fact that the combat is just garbage has little affect on the pleasure I get out of paying for and playing FFXIV. I "Combat" in GW2, I MMO (Story Emersion, Housing, Achievements, Collectables) in FFXIV.

You do not have to make FFXIV the only game you play. GW2 has no subscription if that helps.

[Fawkes]

i dont really want to get into Spike vs Johnny right now, but in the long run spike players can just do their spike builds, and johny players can do their johnny builds if that added such features.

What's spike?