Multi-tank busters should apply to the main tank in an alliance instead of a DPS

[Ultimatecalibur]

It is, again:[/B]

1. For ALLIANCE RAIDS
2. when a TANK HAS DIED
3. such that TANKS TAKE ON THE BURDEN OF TANKS' SCREW-UPS, rather than a random non-tank being killed for having played well.

It is not random. If a member of your party messes up your party gets punished.

Punishing the other tanks who might be doing their job well is an even worse idea, especially since many of those tri-tank busters include AoE elements and short magic vuln debuffs to prevent the tanks from stacking together or with the main body of the alliance. Also if these tank targeted AoEs did not target a member of the dead tank's party it would simplify the fight as the alliance would need to avoid fewer of these AoEs.

[Shurrikhan]

It is not random. If a member of your party messes up your party gets punished.

Punishing the other tanks who might be doing their job well is an even worse idea, especially since many of those tri-tank busters include AoE elements and short magic vuln debuffs to prevent the tanks from stacking together or with the main body of the alliance. Also if these tank targeted AoEs did not target a member of the dead tank's party it would simplify the fight as the alliance would need to avoid fewer of these AoEs.

I'm not saying that would be preferable, only that enmity has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand -- nor, therefore, would tanks be made any more "braindead" through the changes the OP has suggested, let alone that the OP is just too lazy to turn on their tank stance (as a DPS?). The OP was all of two sentences; I had hoped we could read that far, but quickly found otherwise given many of the replies here.

This part, though, is irrelevant. You just have "both strikes" (or simply, double the damage) hit simultaneously. The only way for it to go Damage-Vuln, Damage-Vuln instead of simply Damagex2, Vulnx2, is if you purposely built in that delay to mimic the delay faced by any single multi-target action as it chains through its affectable enemies.

[Lyth]

Tanking and healing are team-orientated roles. If you mess up, it impacts other people. That can be frustrating for those other players, oh no. But if you try to take away that potential frustration, tanking and healing lose their value. This has probably been the single biggest complaint from both the healer subforum and our subforums this expansion. We get that you don't want to interrupt the DPS single player experience, given that most of your lovely sub/mogstation money comes from them. But if you cater too hard to that, nobody wants to play the other roles.

Oh no, if the tank messes up positioning and movement, my positionals will be affected. Solution: Boss tanks itself, and probably is standing off the edge of the map.
Oh no, if the tank dies and wipes the raid, I will die too. Solution: Mitigation is trivial, squishy robe wearers can take boss autos, and there's a backup tank twiddling their thumbs waiting for the chance to provoke.

Next expansion: Due to concerns about tank mistakes impacting other players, we will only allow one tank in the arena at a time. All other tanks will be placed in cages outside, to be released into the wild one at a time when the previous tank dies. And if they all die, Thancred shows up to tank the boss.

The fact that we actually see the fight designers actually trying to give all three tanks something to do in an alliance raid is a baby step in the right direction to keep your tanks all from chain provoking the boss off of each other in a fit of sheer boredom (oh wait, that's another issue). Here's a suggestion. If you don't like being dependent on marginally competent tanks and healers, why don't you play these roles? Oh wow, I think I solved the tank/healer population problem: the devs just need to stop catering to DPS players telling them how these roles should work.

[AC9Breaker]

I think OP's suggestion is a good way to force more wipes. Typically it seems like one good full party can help carry the alliance raid by being on top of their game. This seems like it would punish the alliance party that has the most competent players.

[Shurrikhan]

I think OP's suggestion is a good way to force more wipes.

For an average fight, probably, as it'd increase the chances of a further tank dying, and they tend to be more vital than DPS (again, on average in Alliance Raid fights with three simultaneous tank busters).

This seems like it would punish the alliance party that has the most competent players.

The most competent living tank in the alliance, only. Previously, it'd punish the most competent DPS in the party of the least competent tank. That's the switch here.

[Seraphor]

but we're a whole alliance, that means the other tanks should take the L if another tank dies just like how if a healer dies then the other healer has to solo heal, it's been so bad in the Nier raids that I almost exclusively go as tank for them now just to avoid this mess

I mitigate and used my CDs better than the other tanks so nobody in the party has to die for tank mistakes and if it what I suggested somehow gets into the game I would happily use a holmgang for it

You're absolutely right, the other tanks should take enmity. The game already provides them with the tools to do so. Maybe ask them why they aren't doing that?

[Shurrikhan]

You're absolutely right, the other tanks should take enmity. The game already provides them with the tools to do so. Maybe ask them why they aren't doing that?

They literally can't. The three-way tankbuster will strike 3 enemies regardless, the tank of each party if available and the highest enmity of each party if not.

They cannot Cover an Alliance member, only a party member. They cannot Shake it Off, Heart of Light, Dark Messenger, Passage of Arms, Divine Veil, Intervention, The Blackest Night, Nascent Flash, or Heart of Stone them, either. Nor will flat shields be sufficient to keep their lead DPS from dying to the tankbuster. That leaves only for the DPS to decide where they'd like to die, rather than any potential use of mitigation tools in the missing tank's place.

[Kyni]

I guess we should now also make DPS unkillable by raidwide aoes, because it's not their fault that the healer died or didn't heal them enough...

[Mavrias]

Tanking and healing are team-orientated roles. If you mess up, it impacts other people. That can be frustrating for those other players, oh no. But if you try to take away that potential frustration, tanking and healing lose their value. This has probably been the single biggest complaint from both the healer subforum and our subforums this expansion. We get that you don't want to interrupt the DPS single player experience, given that most of your lovely sub/mogstation money comes from them. But if you cater too hard to that, nobody wants to play the other roles.

Oh no, if the tank messes up positioning and movement, my positionals will be affected. Solution: Boss tanks itself, and probably is standing off the edge of the map.
Oh no, if the tank dies and wipes the raid, I will die too. Solution: Mitigation is trivial, squishy robe wearers can take boss autos, and there's a backup tank twiddling their thumbs waiting for the chance to provoke.

Next expansion: Due to concerns about tank mistakes impacting other players, we will only allow one tank in the arena at a time. All other tanks will be placed in cages outside, to be released into the wild one at a time when the previous tank dies. And if they all die, Thancred shows up to tank the boss.

The fact that we actually see the fight designers actually trying to give all three tanks something to do in an alliance raid is a baby step in the right direction to keep your tanks all from chain provoking the boss off of each other in a fit of sheer boredom (oh wait, that's another issue). Here's a suggestion. If you don't like being dependent on marginally competent tanks and healers, why don't you play these roles? Oh wow, I think I solved the tank/healer population problem: the devs just need to stop catering to DPS players telling them how these roles should work.

All roles are team oriented roles. You seem to have a chip.on your shoulder in regards to dps players.

I've mained healer this entire expansion, but sometimes I want to play something more engaging in the form of dps. The response when I express frustration for dying to a tank or healer mistake on one of the few times i'm not playing tank or healer should not be "just play healer or tank all the time."

[Lyth]

Not entirely.

The reason why DPS tends to be so popular is because it's a single player game. You jump into it and do your thing. Sure, you can do some vaguely helpful things for other players if you want. But people get upset at anything that encroaches on that single player experience. This thread is the embodiment of that mindset. Why should I have to suffer for someone else's mistakes? Well, it's a team game.

People specifically pick tanks and healers so that there are other people relying on them. If you take that away, everyone will play DPS.