Risk Factor. Can I have it?

[Arcell]

It's because THAT's what makes success more rewarding. It's because you face a dreaded penalty that you don't want to die. That's what made death respectable in FFXI, and added extra adrenaline to fights.

And I'm sick of people using the term time sink as if it's a bad thing, it's not. If things weren't spoon fed to everybody then the game would feel rewarding. If Ifrit/Moogle were once a week fights but guaranteed a drop people would not be as sick of them as they are after their 100th fight.

I don't get how that makes things more rewarding but I guess we're just on completely different wavelengths there. I consider a win a win, if I didn't die it really doesn't matter what the penalty was. Honestly it just pisses me off more when I do die knowing that I've lost even more than my own time.

If Ifrit/Moogle were once a week fights I would not have a single win yet lol. There are good timesinks and bad ones, XP loss and level down were not good ones. Every death is precious time wasted, lost forever. Work and effort down the drain for no reason.

If anything all of what you said further encourages class stacking and all as it promotes using the path of least resistance, the easiest party build/strategy. If people are afraid of death they'll resort to any methods to avoid it, even shunning all non-conventional strategies. People wouldn't try different things since it could end in death which everyone is afraid of. It stifles creativity in strategies and builds.

[Jinko]

And I'm sick of people using the term time sink as if it's a bad thing, it's not. If things weren't spoon fed to everybody then the game would feel rewarding. If Ifrit/Moogle were once a week fights but guaranteed a drop people would not be as sick of them as they are after their 100th fight.

Agree with this.

There are good and bad ways to do time sinks, FF11 did it badly, WoW does it fairly well.

I'd like to see weekly content with better chances of rewards and most importantly the choice to distribute the loot.

If Ifrit/Moogle were once a week fights I would not have a single win yet lol.

Why not you can keep trying til you win, you would only be locked out for the week if you killed him.

[Arcell]

Agree with this.

There are good and bad ways to do time sinks, FF11 did it badly, WoW does it fairly well.

I'd like to see weekly content with better chances of rewards and most importantly the choice to distribute the loot.



Why not you can keep trying til you win, you would only be locked out for the week if you killed him.

Ah wasn't aware that the lockout only occurs on a win. Either way it seems a little excessive to me but that's just me.

[Khal_Drogo]

I agree that a certain risk factor is missing, getting killed isn't an issue anymore. Gear damage? hah! In no way am i worried about that.

In FFXI the mobs would also follow you alot more than they do now and one mob in itself for a party was a challenge. Well... back then they weren't labeled their level range. That was Even match, tough, very tough and the like. Some of you know.

And i agree on gear should make a difference. Right now i'm wearing what seems best with the stats it's got for my job, ofcourse. But i really don't notice much change, just trying to hit certain numbers in my attributes because well, "that's what you're supposed to" FFXI had very effective low level gear that made a difference..

And i'll take my chance to say it while i'm at it, i still really don't like the big beacon on NM's. Can i find it myself please?

Thumbs up to you

Gear damage was just a tedious addition made to the game to prevent all the rage-quitting from de-lvling, like we did in XI. Personally, I wish they had just done away w/ de-leveling, but kept the exp loss. Death warping and getting on your lvl 1 jobs for travel was just one of the many, seemingly trivial, things that added to the luster of FFXI.

Anyway! I think the overall risk factor "issues" can be attributed to one aspect of battle in particular; and that's one that the OP already pointed out:

A lot of people complain that clearing mobs is like fighting straw dolls. No challenge. No element of risk. Hell, you can pull 10+ monsters as a group pull in some of the toughest areas in our level range, and generally walk away unscathed (In relation to group/level size of course)

And this is exactly why the game is SO awful right now. Whether you're finishing a leve, on a random mission, in a SH, or wherever, it's an endless swarm of mobs you spam in ws in a party with mages spamming cures. It is so, incredibly, dull...

Nothing can save this game SE doesn't address this issue. SPAM, no thanks...

[OranGemeo]

I definatley agree that there is just no real strategy when it comes to fighting most mobs - which is something XI had and did it well. The system we have in place now, makes every mob feel about the same. There's honestly no point to look for an EXP camp or better mobs to kill, you just simply kill everything in your path. (Monsters go from way too easy to WTF hard and that's about it in XIV) A lot of this goes to the pace of battle we have now. I ideally think someone solo should be able to take on a mob their exact level, a group of 4 should be able to take on about 3-5 levels over, and a group of 8 about 7-9 levels over.

There are definatley some exceptions, but it's still sort of poorly executed. I will say fights like Batraal and Ogre (especially previous, Ogre is cake now) were well thought out as well as Ifrit and Moogle. Had there not been just instant rentry to the two primals, its no telling how long it would have taken for anyone to get the win. I think the instant rentry they have in place is because there is such a lack of content, that if they restricted it, people would even have less to do...

[Rokien]

I don't get how that makes things more rewarding but I guess we're just on completely different wavelengths there. I consider a win a win, if I didn't die it really doesn't matter what the penalty was. Honestly it just pisses me off more when I do die knowing that I've lost even more than my own time.

If Ifrit/Moogle were once a week fights I would not have a single win yet lol. There are good timesinks and bad ones, XP loss and level down were not good ones. Every death is precious time wasted, lost forever. Work and effort down the drain for no reason.

If anything all of what you said further encourages class stacking and all as it promotes using the path of least resistance, the easiest party build/strategy. If people are afraid of death they'll resort to any methods to avoid it, even shunning all non-conventional strategies. People wouldn't try different things since it could end in death which everyone is afraid of. It stifles creativity in strategies and builds.

lol Go play Demon souls.......... gosh...........death awaits all on that game ALSO losing 1000000souls SUCKS!~ and deleveling, it was one of the best games ever!~

[Jinko]

There are definatley some exceptions, but it's still sort of poorly executed. I will say fights like Batraal and Ogre (especially previous, Ogre is cake now) were well thought out as well as Ifrit and Moogle. Had there not been just instant rentry to the two primals, its no telling how long it would have taken for anyone to get the win. I think the instant rentry they have in place is because there is such a lack of content, that if they restricted it, people would even have less to do...

I don't think Batraal and Ogre have been rebalanced since the patch which could be why they are so easy now.

Agree that the current re-entry timers are most likely due to lack of content.

[Malachite]

Again I ask, why do we NEED a harsh death penalty to be good players? Can't we just play well so that we don't suck? Can't we not want to die simply so we don't die? Especially in the instanced content, if all players die you lose essentially. Isn't that enough? Why must we lose our hard earned XP? What does that accomplish really?

It adds a horrible timesink, getting back the XP you already earned once. Then you have people afraid to take any chances or use anything other than the easiest party build because they are afraid to die. Then class stacking becomes even more of an issue because no one wants to branch out and try something different. As if we needed another reason for people to stack Archers, lets add lower risk of death and loss of XP to the list.

I'm just curious as to why we must be harshly penalized for death. I just don't see why we must have a reason to not suck at the game.

For me, it really doesn't have anything to do with having a reason to not suck at the game. It has more to do with how engaged I feel. In the early days of XI, I found that putting together a competent exp group, and pushing that particular group's abilities to the limit was immensely engaging. By engaged, I mean involved and as an extension of that, focused (something that XIV's combat system just doesn't require). The combination of XI's inherently closely matched fights (someone gave an example earlier of an even matched fight against a mandragora being a challenge) and the relatively harsh death penalty are just two of the many factors that lead to engaging play, but they were particularly important ones.

Death in XI was anathema and exp parties were as much about not dying as they were about gaining exp. This lead to dynamic groups and engaging play. Because staying alive was such a key factor to gaining exp, small changes in party makeup made a large difference. Your tank is slightly under geared or slightly underleveled? The group's strategy (a combination of trying to maximize exp gain, while staying alive at all costs) changes accordingly. Crappy healer? The group's strategy changes accordingly. Unusually effective group that comes together cohesively? The group's strategy changes accordingly.

One of the most exciting things about all of this was that groups didn't always change for the better. Maybe your RDM just couldn't keep his debuffs on the mobs you're fighting, and the tank ends up taking a beating because of it. So, their NIN tank can't keep his shadows up because the mob isn't being kept slowed/paralyzed and the group disbands. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

Any time you bring a group of people together, it is not a given that said group will be able to work well together. This is a fact of life. Because of this, groups that do work well are just that much sweeter. I play these kinds of games for a variety of reasons but the level of engagement experienced has a lot to do with how long I stay. In MMOs it is usually provided through the combat system. This is my main beef with XIV. You can toss virtually anyone together in an exp group, barely pay attention to what is happening and still do well. Walk away from the keyboard for a few minutes and die, so what? You don't lose anything and the party still goes on without you at practically the same pace as it did when you were there.

MMOs are a time sink by their very nature. So what if it takes me 100 hours or 500 hours to reach level cap. Furthermore, so what if I can't maximize exp gained in every single situation? I wouldn't want to do so even if I could. Where's the fun in that? There's fun, but also humanity in diversity. And what I described above leads to diversity. FFXI's partying system, whether the developers planned for it or not, was dynamic and diverse.

I went a bit further with this post than I intended, but oh well. I hope it made sense.

[Darkillumina]

I agree with this thread and I posted something similar in a giant post I made last night. Most probably skimped over it because the post was long. An excerpt is below.

Battle System

While I realize this is getting revamped in 2.0 there are some criticisms I would like to make.

The first problem is that I really feel no sense of urgency or danger in battle. In FFXI, fighting 'Incredibly Tough' monsters was extremely dangerous. A link at the wrong time could wipe your group, a blown skill-chain could extend the battle to deadly lengths. Here, whenever I am grouped with 7 other adventurers it feels like we are a tank rolling over straw huts. In FFXI preparation was everything and character death was a very real possibility no matter what level you were; in FFXIV you just wander around wherever you go like a maelstrom of death and destruction.

The second problem I have is with the revamped skill system. Quite frankly it feels like I am playing WoW, DCUO or any other MMO based off the Warcraft model. I assign a ability, press 1, 2, 3 ect and watch my character utilize a various skill. When I am grouped up it feels even worse. It seems as if everyone is spamming attacks with impunity Again, I think this game can learn something from early FFXI going forward.
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I liked the punishment system of FFXI. It forced players to actually be half decent and pay attention. You couldn't half-ass it or your team would suffer. It also pushed people to equip themselves competently so they weren't a hindrance. If you were a terrible party member in FFXI word got out and it was hard for you to get groups. If you were decent you got picked up. I don't know why everybody expects instant gratification. FFXI made you work for something and as someone else said having a single 75 was an achievement.

I am far from a hardcore MMO player, even during FFXI. I played sporadically but still enjoyed the system. It seems to me that those complaining were those who either couldn't hack it, didn't want to put the effort in to not be gimp and didn't want to group up. Heaven forbid a game actually make you work for your reward in this day and age. FFXI had such longevity between 2004 and 2007 due to the difficulty curve. It kept you coming back because there was always something or someone pushing you to be better. It wasn't a simple gear grind like most mmo's are nowadays. I would even argue that the lack of difficulty is why we see so many MMO's drop off a cliff relatively quickly after launch.

I never understood the argument of sitting around in FFXI waiting for a party either. If you did that you were doing it wrong. When I was flagged which was often as I was initially a DRK, I never sat around waiting for an invite. I was always doing something like mining or camping an NM.

[Arcell]

For me, it really doesn't have anything to do with having a reason to not suck at the game. It has more to do with how engaged I feel. In the early days of XI, I found that putting together a competent exp group, and pushing that particular group's abilities to the limit was immensely engaging. By engaged, I mean involved and as an extension of that, focused (something that XIV's combat system just doesn't require). The combination of XI's inherently closely matched fights (someone gave an example earlier of an even matched fight against a mandragora being a challenge) and the relatively harsh death penalty are just two of the many factors that lead to engaging play, but they were particularly important ones.

Death in XI was anathema and exp parties were as much about not dying as they were about gaining exp. This lead to dynamic groups and engaging play. Because staying alive was such a key factor to gaining exp, small changes in party makeup made a large difference. Your tank is slightly under geared or slightly underleveled? The group's strategy (a combination of trying to maximize exp gain, while staying alive at all costs) changes accordingly. Crappy healer? The group's strategy changes accordingly. Unusually effective group that comes together cohesively? The group's strategy changes accordingly.

One of the most exciting things about all of this was that groups didn't always change for the better. Maybe your RDM just couldn't keep his debuffs on the mobs you're fighting, and the tank ends up taking a beating because of it. So, their NIN tank can't keep his shadows up because the mob isn't being kept slowed/paralyzed and the group disbands. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing.

Any time you bring a group of people together, it is not a given that said group will be able to work well together. This is a fact of life. Because of this, groups that do work well are just that much sweeter. I play these kinds of games for a variety of reasons but the level of engagement experienced has a lot to do with how long I stay. In MMOs it is usually provided through the combat system. This is my main beef with XIV. You can toss virtually anyone together in an exp group, barely pay attention to what is happening and still do well. Walk away from the keyboard for a few minutes and die, so what? You don't lose anything and the party still goes on without you at practically the same pace as it did when you were there.

MMOs are a time sink by their very nature. So what if it takes me 100 hours or 500 hours to reach level cap. Furthermore, so what if I can't maximize exp gained in every single situation? I wouldn't want to do so even if I could. Where's the fun in that? There's fun, but also humanity in diversity. And what I described above leads to diversity. FFXI's partying system, whether the developers planned for it or not, was dynamic and diverse.

I went a bit further with this post than I intended, but oh well. I hope it made sense.

I can understand that however I don't think that a horribly masochistic death penalty is needed for that. Fights that require thought and where you can actually die, regardless of consequences, would help. I would agree that we need more of that, more challenging content. I think we could achieve a level of engaging combat by just making things not die so easily, but I just don't think the death penalty is required for it.

Also worth considering is that this game was and still is built for a more casual audience than XI. Yoshida changed the death penalty once, we used to only have the sickness. He could have changed it to something like XP loss/level down but he didn't, I think they also said that they have absolutely no plans to do such a thing.

Challenging content is something I would like to see and it's plausible for the future. XP loss/level down is not quite as likely.