Ninja just ruins the feeling of Rogue

[Roeshel]

I've played lots of rogues(and their similar classes where applicable) over many games, a new player I thought I would enjoy rogue here in ff14.

I was mistaken when I became a ninja, gone was the thematic stabbery and subterfuge, now I am a battle caster akin to a mage, doing big explosions, lightning bolts, bursts of ice and misty waters. I didn't want to be a mage, I wanted a class with one or two daggers, that did things with those daggers, maybe got some dashing attacks, positionals, more ways to get into stealth in combat. I was really enjoying everything that rogue was doing up until I got to the 30's and ninja happened.

I understand from looking into the games history there was once thoughts of multiple jobs per class but that was dumped after a bad experience when trying to implement it on a mage class.

Now, instead of giving me a history lesson on why that can't be implemented, or that rogue becomes ninja in ff1, can someone please tell me which class is a lightly armored non mage, that doesn't do any magery, with fun positionals just a melee rotation to learn. If I can't trust rogue to not do magic I'm afraid to just blindly level something else hoping for a mechanic I will like.

I like magic, healers, and casters. I guess this is why I liked rouge becoming a ninja at level 30.

[Bright-Flower]

It's definitely fair to not like the direction ninja has gone. For me though personally the ninjitsu were always the main appeal of the job, so the changes have only made me appreciate it more personally.

But just as how I've had less fun with sommoner the more it leans into demi bahamut/phoneix etc the last couple expansions, prefering HW summoner, I can see how people that aren't as into the ninjitsu aspect would not like seeing it be more prominent and some of the 'rogue' stuff being sidelined.

[AnnRam]

Same could be say about lots of classes for example " I wanted to be Legolas but instead I play instruments wth"

[TeraRamis]

Same could be say about lots of classes for example " I wanted to be Legolas but instead I play instruments wth"

IMO, Bard is the single most disappointing job in FFXIV. The songs do not jive well with the archer rotation, there are too many DOT refreshes baked into the class, and it doesn't feel like either a pure minstrel or a ranger, fully satisfying no camp. By contrast, Dancer has an extremely fluid skillset, whose buffs in no way intrude on DPS output, with great visuals, and every element of the experience feels like... well... dance. In many ways, Dancer feels like what Bard probably would have been if they could redesign the class in a finished state that began the game at 50.

Additionally, Marauder -> Warrior and Gladiator -> Paladin feel like virtually no change at all has occurred, so this isn't exclusive to classes that were built from the ground-up in a 'finished' state. Archer -> Bard and Rogue -> Ninja really stand out as bad, jolting transitions. Frankly, I'd probably main a Rogue if it could have stayed in the base class. The Mudra is such a turnoff, not because of complexity (it isn't anymore), but because it doesn't really slickly fit in with the knife slashing. I feel like every time my character drops into the mudra phase, he's taking a little siesta from the actual fighting. It's lame.

[DPZ2]

I suspect that much of the dissatisfaction of Rogue coming from those who played one in WoW is due to the fact that the Warrior of Light is not, nor could ever be, an assassin or outlaw. The specs in WoW were designed to work well with PvP (too well, for some people's taste), something that doesn't happen in Eorzea to the same extent.

In ARR, the base class is the equivalent of a Pirate Policeman, rather than the more traditional Thief. The Upright Thieves was a good solid beginning to what would then become the mystical Shadow Warrior.

Unfortunate, I suppose, for those who were looking for more of a WoW/D&D flavor to their avatar. Remember, though, that the level 30+ job was always going to be Ninja, and the more popular versions of Ninja do not exist within the relatively shady side of the life of a thief.

If melee attacks are you're primary go-to, consider Dragoon, Samurai and Monk. SAM and MNK share gear throughout the game, DRG branches off into it's own gear sets after a while [Maiming, rather than Slaying].

[DPZ2]

IMO, Bard is the single most disappointing job in FFXIV. The songs do not jive well with the archer rotation, there are too many DOT refreshes baked into the class, and it doesn't feel like either a pure minstrel or a ranger, fully satisfying no camp.

As a Bard main, I got exactly what I expected.

I've played a minstrel (pure song) class in LOTR, and the execution was, um, horrid. I played a Hunter in WoW - it was neither a ranger nor a pure archer.

The songs take some time to get right, but they become automatic after a certain point, and are not a hindrance to the Archer archetype. DoTs are baked into the rotation because you need something to cause procs, and they're pretty constant throughout any battle.

I have never come across a pure Ranger in an MMO, although I do remember playing with Ranger builds in Rift. There was the one that was a combination of Ranger, Marksman and Assassin souls; the the one with Ranger, Marksman and Nightblade souls; and even one with Ranger, Bard and Nightblade souls. None were pure Ranger, most were more rogue-like than archer. Archeage is somewhat similar in builds.

Zen Archer in Blade and Soul may come a bit closer, I suppose, although I kinda stopped playing that game after hitting level 50.

[Shurrikhan]

DoTs are baked into the rotation because you need something to cause procs, and they're pretty constant throughout any battle.

You realize every source of damage outside of periodic damage is equally "something", right? DoTs are there because at some point one of the two class devs decided "You know what, people who'd like the Bard archetype also like tracking debuffs, right? Too bad if not, cus that's what they're getting."

:: To be clear, I don't dislike DoTs, but DoTs being there "because you need something to cause procs" is as silly as, say, Air Anchor being a mere ST nuke + battery-charger "because, well, you something to charge the gauge (that was itself really just a nerf to MCH's thematic manipulation of persisting tech compared to, well, not having it locked behind a gauge)."

[Shurrikhan]

Same could be say about lots of classes for example " I wanted to be Legolas but instead I play instruments wth"

That's a fair take, imo, and I'd personally love to see an alternate Ranger or Marksman option. Granted, Bard is already 90+% archer... just with a whole lot of VFX that may be a turn off to those who actually wanted 90+% archery.

Gameplay-wise, if you want a Bard that actually does significantly bardish things, that's not much of an option. Aesthetic-wise, if you want an Archer, it has to be saturated in (largely irrelevant to gameplay) Bard VFX. Kind of a lose-lose unless you're sold on the exact mixture given.

[Ralph2449]

it was neither a ranger nor a pure archer.

If you play marksman is definitely feels like a pure archer considering the pet is not used so you can stay back at 50 years shooting stuff, something i wished FF14 had cuz the bard singer job fantasy is not my thing

[Dragonblanco]

I've played lots of rogues(and their similar classes where applicable) over many games, a new player I thought I would enjoy rogue here in ff14.

I was mistaken when I became a ninja, gone was the thematic stabbery and subterfuge, now I am a battle caster akin to a mage, doing big explosions, lightning bolts, bursts of ice and misty waters. I didn't want to be a mage, I wanted a class with one or two daggers, that did things with those daggers, maybe got some dashing attacks, positionals, more ways to get into stealth in combat. I was really enjoying everything that rogue was doing up until I got to the 30's and ninja happened.

I understand from looking into the games history there was once thoughts of multiple jobs per class but that was dumped after a bad experience when trying to implement it on a mage class.

Now, instead of giving me a history lesson on why that can't be implemented, or that rogue becomes ninja in ff1, can someone please tell me which class is a lightly armored non mage, that doesn't do any magery, with fun positionals just a melee rotation to learn. If I can't trust rogue to not do magic I'm afraid to just blindly level something else hoping for a mechanic I will like.

Umm, I actually just got my ninja to 70. We still have our stealth, we get a passive increase on movement speed, there's Shukuchi to dash to a particular location, you have Trick Attack and Aeolian Edge that deals extra damage from behind, Armor Crush when hitting from the flank, etc.

As to stealth in combat, I agree it might be nice to have in order to escape in "oh crap" moments in order to survive. So it stinks that's gone BUT they do give you Suiton which is a ninjutsu that allows you to use attacks like Trick Attack that usually can only be used during stealth.

You haven't gone far enough yet to get to see Dream Within A Dream and Assassinate, but it hits hard with those daggers. You have the equivalent of a poison with Shadow Fang.

I mean, I'm not sure what you're at. There's plenty of subterfuge, stabbery, killing with daggers (and throwing your daggers), dashing/teleporting places, hitting from positionals, etc.
__________

Oh, and keep in mind ninjutsu is real. Much like we see magicians now as illusionists, to fool the mind, ninjas use trickery that seemed like magic to disorient and kill their opponents. Flame damage might be explosions or a Molotov Cocktail. There's all sorts of things you could look at. If you're looking at the lore aspect you can let yourself be aware of that and not think of it as magic, but of using special tools you've prepared to vanquish your foes.

Sure, they can do better. I have high hopes for the next expansion. But it plays really well.