6.0 Story Speculations

[Fenral]

At this point everyone in the party but Thancred has (or had) a raise. I think it's fine to accept that the (surviving) main party is just really hard to kill. It may sound backwards, but having a party of unkillable superhumans means their failures can carry as much weight as our own, with actual voiced reactions for added value.

The FF9/12 approach would be to have Zenos take out a highly sympathetic leader figure, rather than a party member. It would still feel personal, but there would also be lasting consequences for the world itself that could carry on into future storylines and remind us of what we lost. Who, though? No idea.

Could be Forks-and-knives, though we'd need to spend a lot of time with him for it to work.

[Vyrerus]

It's that Gwen Stacy effect.

It wouldn't really be a solo pull. If we want to make it parallel Rhalgr's Reach, then it would be her taking it upon herself to try and save someone, living up to Louisoix's principles. Who that someone is could be any other Scion or close NPC to the WoL.

As far as Gwen Stacy goes, is that some more modern version of her death? In her original death, Spiderman stops her fall and kills her by snapping her neck himself, incidentally, because he didn't account for what sudden deceleration would do to her/hoped she'd survive. The comic writers for that original issue stated it was impossible for Spiderman to save Gwen Stacy.

As for what is gained when a well developed character is killed off is exactly what you said earlier that we want for the writer's to achieve for Zenos. Fill the players full of the, "The Son of a Bitch must pay." mentality. Fuel engagement by driving up the desire for vengeance. As far as my first time through of the game goes, I was always a bit perturbed that though I could do things like say, "Ser Zepherin will pay!" And that I'd hunt down Ishgard's Pope, I only got to follow through on one of those, really. My stakes were personal, but they didn't let the villain who perpetrated the deed be. Killing any of the main cast makes it highly personal, if you ask me.

Yeah, I know they'd never do it due to the queue problems since the playerbase is majority DPS. That'd be one slow queue. I still think it'd be grand though. Especially just thinking about how the Magus Sisters fight by the smallest one marking a party member with a physical hit, the fat one putting reflect on herself, and then the tall one bouncing her most powerful magic off the fat one onto the marked target. It penetrates reflect due to being bounced. I don't know how they fight in X, but I do know they've got like, bug outfits on or something.

It makes me think of how they could design a fight if it were designed around more tanks.

[Vyrerus]

At this point everyone in the party but Thancred has (or had) a raise. I think it's fine to accept that the (surviving) main party is just really hard to kill. It may sound backwards, but having a party of unkillable superhumans means their failures can carry as much weight as our own, with actual voiced reactions for added value.

The FF9/12 approach would be to have Zenos take out a highly sympathetic leader figure, rather than a party member. It would still feel personal, but there would also be lasting consequences for the world itself that could carry on into future storylines and remind us of what we lost. Who, though? No idea.

Could be Forks-and-knives, though we'd need to spend a lot of time with him for it to work.

When did Urianger get hoodwinked? :O>

[Lyth]

We've had at least three instances to date of important plot characters doing deliberate, planned heroic sacrifices. You go on; I'll stay behind. They're nice and poetic and beautiful, but not particularly upsetting. I never felt particularly strong urges for vengeance against Bahamut, Shinryu, or Garlean Airship #57. But maybe I've also just seen this play out too many times in fiction.

What I do tend to find frustrating and regret-inducing is when a character dies a meaningless death that an ideal hero coulda shoulda woulda at least theoretically prevented had they the foresight or planning to do so. In terms of other games in the franchise, there are two very well known cases where the writers very deliberately wind you up with 'oh, great, she's safe, thank the Twelve, what a relief let's cele-' followed by '...t-this is very bad.' That's what I'm referring to by a Gwen Stacy effect. It's not a question of whether it's actually possible to save them. It's a question of whether a (relatively) ideal hero ought to be able to save them.

Nanamo was the best setup by far in ARR, until they squandered it. Double points when someone you trust betrays you in the process.

Zenos also just seems too bored with everyone else as it stands to really get a kick out of hurting your friends. It would be like trying to pick a fight with an natural disaster or force of nature. He just doesn't have real intent. The Black Rose would have been an easier way to go the Kefka route, if he was so inclined. There'd really have to be something else twisting his personality in a more sinister direction. Honestly, the closest FF parallels that I'm drawing at the moment are Seifer and Kuja. He really just wants to win, outmatched as he is. Not really final boss material.

[Tensaihime]

If Zenos is taking up the Reaper job, I would guess that there is another malevolent voidsent force at his side as his Avatar. Could be Fandaniel, but there's another possibility.

It's worth noting that most of the central antagonists in the past few expansions are also linked to him through Shinryu, a being of pure violence, as an amalgamation of their mutual hatred for you and Eorzea. Some of that is bound to have rubbed off on him, if not... possessed him?

Zenos is probably more than just Zenos at this point. The Resonant bit put Zenos on even footing with Azem's partially unsundered form, but we've probably done more than our fair share to power him up further by leaving a trail of vengeful spirits in our wake.

Besides, gotta find a way to deliver that 'We are the hatred of Zenos... We... are Zeromus!' line. End it with a Big Bang, so to speak.

So many broken by this world, and then by you.

Woe betide the man who stands opposed to the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear. Woe betide the man who stands with the Weapon of Light, for death will be his reward. Death for him and his kin and all that he holds dear.

It's not surprising that Myste springs to mind, as a manifestation of Ilberd's memory pops up there as well. But our answer remains the same now, as it did then.

'Justice deserves no less.'

Just to make sure I got this: Zenos died but wouldn’t stay dead, and now he has a very high chance of still having the power of the primal we thought we beat out of him because both he and that primal were very strong? Like if Ysayle on steroids was crazy and unkillable and could become Shiva even with no crystals around? But I don’t know if it’s possible for a guy who has the Echo and thus can’t be tempered to be possessed...

And I was very tired of the charade that I wouldn’t throw hands with the little clown who stood there judging me when I‘d dealt with problems others couldn’t or wouldn’t. He called to mind early HW when they all hated me (after Shiva and Vishap!) and I hated ‘em right back.

The other option is to do a bait and switch. Perhaps the real final villain shows up, eats Zenos, and you fight them instead.

I’d be fine with this, if only because we’ve already fought him so many times, and I still am shocked and confused by how we were finally able to beat him BEFORE he went and got primal steroids. Plus I think it would be funny in a cruel way if he never got to have his rematch with his (very unhealthy and not at all friendly!!) “friend.”

I’ll happily put Hydaelyn down, too, when he’s gone. She lied to us all this time, and she’s a primal. I’m okay with all the Amaurot shenanigans being left in the past.

[Tensaihime]

Could be Forks-and-knives, though we'd need to spend a lot of time with him for it to work.

We’d also have to start liking him. Otherwise, a lot of players would be thanking Zenos for finally freeing us of him.

...look, I know somebody’s gonna die because endgames are serious business, I’m just over here crossing my fingers that it won’t involve politics, backstabbing, or WoL being a lemon in the cutscenes again. That’s all I want. Anything else, I’ll cry, wipe the snot off my keyboard, and do my retaliatory killing spree and live with it.

[RyuDragnier]

The FF9/12 approach would be to have Zenos take out a highly sympathetic leader figure, rather than a party member. It would still feel personal, but there would also be lasting consequences for the world itself that could carry on into future storylines and remind us of what we lost. Who, though? No idea.

Kan-E-Senna would be my bet. She's rather well liked, isn't in any sidequests, and killing her would do some serious damage to both Eorzea and ourselves emotionally. Her death could possibly cause the elementals to go berserk for a bit, and throw Gridania and the Shroud itself into complete chaos until a replacement is chosen. That's assuming they don't introduce a world leader just to kill them off this expansion, since there's really nobody else with enough "power" other than her.

[Fenral]

The other option is to do a bait and switch. Perhaps the real final villain shows up, eats Zenos, and you fight them instead.

If what you were saying about him having his own Reaper pet proves true, I imagine it betraying Zenos and eating him, realizing all too late what a horrible overreach that was, and leaving us to clean up Zeronos or whatever bursts out of its voidsent corpse.

However it plays out, I will be deeply offended if whatever we end up fighting has a set-up time of longer than two minutes. Whatever it is, it needs to come out of frigging nowhere with only the barest minimum of plot justification, or it's just not Final Fantasy.

[Lyth]

...

We're yet to see how Reaper lore will pan out, but I suspect that a Reaper's 'Possession' is not quite the same as allowing yourself to get 'Tempered'. If you had to be tempered, the WoL wouldn't be able to become the job either.

And here's where it gets interesting. The following is taken from your showdown with the Zenos/Shinryu at the end of the Stormblood campaign.

Ah. As simple of that. But of course. You are the eikon-slayer. Such certainty is to be expected. A pity. There is another alternative. Or there would be... had you only mastered your abilities. I speak of the Echo, of course. Does it merely render you immune to eikonic influence? Or is it rather that your influence is far greater than theirs? Granted, these implications are of no moment to a savage, who thinks only of killing the beast before him...

But when I read van Baelsar's repots, I immediately saw the boundless potential of the Echo. I saw how it could be instrumental in binding an eikon to one's will. Hence my research and the Resonant - and oh so much more!

What we're seeing is the reverse process, where Zenos possesses (or perhaps more accurately, tempers) Shinryu, although I suspect that there is probably a degree of give and take when you have two entities with similar levels of power (?aether). I wonder if what we do with the Lightwardens' aether during Shadowbringers is similar, and that our rejoining was necessary to give us the 'influence' (?aether) required to retain control.

By the way, it's worth noting that Fray's full name is Fray Myste. They're both you. Myste is that part of you that carries the memories of those who have fallen along the way, as the superego to Fray's id. There's also a bit of speculation that the character's appearance draws reference from either Haurchefant or Ysayle, or some combination of the two.

In your darkest hour, in the blackest night... think of me, and I will be with you. Always. For where else could I go? Who else could I love but you?

It's about learning to forgive yourself. It's also about gaining a pretty cool bubble shield in the process. Myste is alright.

...

That could work out quite nicely. Eat both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, corrupt them both, and then lose control, ushering in a new era without a supreme deity. That's fine by me too. The legacy of the crystals have shaped our history for long enough. Oh wait, that's a different Final Fantasy.

[Rymi64]

We're yet to see how Reaper lore will pan out, but I suspect that a Reaper's 'Possession' is not quite the same as allowing yourself to get 'Tempered'. If you had to be tempered, the WoL wouldn't be able to become the job either.

And here's where it gets interesting. The following is taken from your showdown with the Zenos/Shinryu at the end of the Stormblood campaign.

Ah. As simple of that. But of course. You are the eikon-slayer. Such certainty is to be expected. A pity. There is another alternative. Or there would be... had you only mastered your abilities. I speak of the Echo, of course. Does it merely render you immune to eikonic influence? Or is it rather that your influence is far greater than theirs? Granted, these implications are of no moment to a savage, who thinks only of killing the beast before him...

But when I read van Baelsar's repots, I immediately saw the boundless potential of the Echo. I saw how it could be instrumental in binding an eikon to one's will. Hence my research and the Resonant - and oh so much more!

What we're seeing is the reverse process, where Zenos possesses (or perhaps more accurately, tempers) Shinryu, although I suspect that there is probably a degree of give and take when you have two entities with similar levels of power (?aether). I wonder if what we do with the Lightwardens' aether during Shadowbringers is similar, and that our rejoining was necessary to give us the 'influence' (?aether) required to retain control.

By the way, it's worth noting that Fray's full name is Fray Myste. They're both you. Myste is that part of you that carries the memories of those who have fallen along the way, as the superego to Fray's id. There's also a bit of speculation that the character's appearance draws reference from either Haurchefant or Ysayle, or some combination of the two.

In your darkest hour, in the blackest night... think of me, and I will be with you. Always. For where else could I go? Who else could I love but you?

It's about learning to forgive yourself. It's also about gaining a pretty cool bubble shield in the process. Myste is alright.

That could work out quite nicely. Eat both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, corrupt them both, and then lose control, ushering in a new era without a supreme deity. That's fine by me too. The legacy of the crystals have shaped our history for long enough. Oh wait, that's a different Final Fantasy.

I think the light warden situation was different. In our case by absorbing all that light it was just us absorbing a certain polarity unto ourselves which was slowly umbralizing our soul, after all we were only able to do that because of our blessing of light.

myste is a common last name for orphans of the brume btw.