Harassment to Asmongold on his 1st day stream is an Embarassment to FF Community

[Goji1639]

I dont see many people claiming toxicity doesn't exist, I do see a lot of people claiming other people are claiming it doesn't exist though.

I think most people with a double digit IQ are more than aware in any large community there will be unsavoury people.

When this subject comes up, for the 18th time on any given day on the forums I always think of this,

"If on your way to work you met a rude person, move on and forget about it, rude people exist. However, if by the time you get home you have done nothing but deal with rude people all day the chances are the rude person is you"

People will generally reflect your own attitude back at you. There are exceptions, but if its a common problem you have, use a mirror.

People would be hard pressed to claim this community isn't toxic now, so yes some people are admitting the toxic element exists.

The problem is that plenty are still clinging to the idea that this community is somehow morally superior to that of other games. They basically hold other games accountable for their toxic players, while apparently the crappy things this community does to people don't count because "bad people exist; deal with it!"

This community has real issues that should probably be acknowledged; not dismissed and avoided.

[Krotoan]

People would be hard pressed to claim this community isn't toxic now, so yes some people are admitting the toxic element exists.
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"You don't pay my sub" being pretty much a meme now being a good example, toxicity in this community has always been acknowledged and NOBODY claims or has claimed there is no toxicity in FFXIV. The only people I ever see making that claim are those who make it FOR other people who they then argue against. It's pretty much a beaten and tired as hell strawman that people like to march out when people dare to say subjective things like "People have been so friendly here" or "this is so much better than gameIplayedbefore".

and look at how you're framing this, you start with the claim that "This community is toxic". No it's not. It contains toxicity like every community does. But this does not make the entire community toxic.

The problem is that plenty are still clinging to the idea that this community is somehow morally superior to that of other games. They basically hold other games accountable for their toxic players, while apparently the crappy things this community does to people don't count because "bad people exist; deal with it!"

This community has real issues that should probably be acknowledged; not dismissed and avoided.

I will argue up and down that playing FFXIV does not give you moral superiority to someone who plays other games. As far as I'm concerned we're just gamers and it's the game and framework we worth within that is giving people better EXPERIENCES than in other games. This doesn't mean people aren't having BAD experiences. This doesn't mean people aren't being their same crappy selves that they are in other games. Just that people seem to report positive experiences when swapping to FFXIV a lot and people who play this game a lot seem to feel that overall the hostility and BM occurrences are lower.


What exactly is it you want from the community at large? What would you like them to address that isn't already well known and acknowledged as well as discussed?

[Goji1639]

What exactly is it you want from the community at large? What would you like them to address that isn't already well known and acknowledged as well as discussed?

I'm mainly addressing the people who still believe that FFXIV has a nicer, kinder, better community than other online games. This was a high profile, excessive, systematic harassment of one person; and should be a wakeup call for anyone who was under the delusion that this game was some kind of exception when it comes to toxic online communities.

I'm just doing my part to see this incident doesn't get swept under the rug, because I'm sure plenty of people want everyone to just move on so the FFXIV community doesn't face the scrutiny it deserves for this.

[Artemiz]

People would be hard pressed to claim this community isn't toxic now, so yes some people are admitting the toxic element exists.

The problem is that plenty are still clinging to the idea that this community is somehow morally superior to that of other games. They basically hold other games accountable for their toxic players, while apparently the crappy things this community does to people don't count because "bad people exist; deal with it!"

This community has real issues that should probably be acknowledged; not dismissed and avoided.

You are using a very broad brush to tar a whole.community. Sure, there have been some hot takes on the Asmongold harassment but far more people seem to be cheering the bans and condemning it, and rightly so. People don't claim this community is perfect and saintly and they never have, not in the time I've been playing anyway.

What people do say is its a nice community which for the most part it is. The problem is the current bandwagon is to rail against that idea and cherry pick every single toxic thing someone encounters and then extrapolate that to the whole player base.

Its not a coincidence that new players, especially those with an audience talk about how nice everyone is. They are obviously on their sprout honeymoon period but the player base is generally chill if not overtly friendly.

Treat people nice in this game and you generally get the same back aside from the odd exception. Toxic is relative, but to me this community is not even close to the worst out there. I've been told that passive aggression is worse than actual aggression, I'd like that person to play CoD for a bit, then see if they still think "you don't pay my sub" is worse than a dictionary of insults being thrown at you including racism and xenophobia just because someone doesn't like the gun you use or your playstyle.

[Krotoan]

I'm mainly addressing the people who still believe that FFXIV has a nicer, kinder, better community than other online games. This was a high profile, excessive systematic harassment of one person and should be a wakeup call for anyone who was under the delusion that this game was some kind of exception when it comes to toxic online communities. I'm just doing my part to see this incident doesn't get swept under the rug, because I'm sure plenty of people want everyone to just move on so FFXIV doesn't face the scrutiny it deserves for this.

Scrutiny for the harassment of a prominent streamer who gets this treatment pretty much every single new game he plays?

No it wasn't a good look for FFXIV. Sure. But if we go with what the aftermath is: Quick GM action (which surprised even Asmon), multiple community outlets having players decrying the actions of those who harassed him and wishing him nothing but unmolested play in the future (yes there are still haters and zealots out there and nobody is saying they don't exist), it seems that the game experience, even for the streamer who expected this to happen, seems to be pretty good.

I watched his streams too. Hours and hours of them. You know what I saw? People in his instanced runs (he pretty much just straight up random queued DF) who let him just play and didn't get all gross when he was single pulling every single dungeon he did (to Asmons credit he adapted to tanking pretty quick). People trying their hardest to give him good advice within the spam and immediately trying to help him minimize the interference he was getting who must have been FFXIV players by their familiarity with the game (they can also be his community members, this isn't exclusive. In fact contrary to the narrative I've been reading there's probably a pretty large contingent of actual longtime FFXIV players in his audience) .


Pointing to his experience though as some revelation of the "true FFXIV community" is super disingenuous too . His experience is most assuredly a unique one considering his position and circumstance and any good faith argument has to admit it's not indicative in any measure of what someone playing the game will go through. It's like judging a restaurant on their service and staff when someone famous comes in to eat with their entourage, it's just a circus. You're much better off looking at smaller content creators and individual "nobody" accounts for any sort of real measure.

[Goji1639]

Snip

This is all fine, but you have to understand that for a long time this community has been self-promoting the idea that it lacks the toxicity of other similar communities. This community more than pretty much any other gaming community I've ever seen, has been self-anointing it's moral superiority. For this community to then turn around and be the source of a very high-profile display of large scale harassment should be eye-opening.

Some people who came from WoW having a better experience here is nice, but that doesn't make this go away. This was a very blatant, very visible showing of what this community is capable of.

Pointing to his experience though as some revelation of the "true FFXIV community" is super disingenuous too . His experience is most assuredly a unique one considering his position and circumstance and any good faith argument has to admit it's not indicative in any measure of what someone playing the game will go through. It's like judging a restaurant on their service and staff when someone famous comes in to eat with their entourage, it's just a circus. You're much better off looking at smaller content creators and individual "nobody" accounts for any sort of real measure.

Never said this was indicative of what every new players experience will be, but it is absolutely indicative of what this community can and will do to people it views as outsiders. This wasn't a handful of people being jerks in DF, it was a large scale concerted effort by a contingent of this community to harass 1 person simply because he's from a different game. Like it or not that kind of thing leaves a mark on this community.

I'm not condemning everyone who plays the game, or even saying FFXIV is worse than other games. What I am saying is that this game isn't a bastion or exception to the rules regarding toxic online communities.

[ksuyen]

While I do believe the majority of players in ALL online games are nice, this is still just one thread and a handful of people. I'd argue a community that considers itself as genuinely kind as this one does wouldn't have needed a GM response and a banwave to stop it's players from gang harassing someone just because he's a high-profile player of a different game.

Admittedly not every players jump into the forum, but what numbers represented here play equally in ratio to both non-toxic and toxic people. As for the matter of GM handing over bans, that's their role. They are expected to respond if any players had broken any rules as written in T&C. It happened before, it will happen again, it's nothing new just because a certain well known person caused it. It is not the right tool to measure the community toxicity level by any standards.

Without risking to sound repetitive, I echo the sentiment of general opinions here. The community in FFXIV is far from perfect, just like any communities that exist in the world. There are always some bad among the good. Without going to compare it to any other MMOs, I am however convinced that the bad is almost negligible as a whole. Players enjoy playing in FFXIV and interact with others because they feel safe and genuinely feel the system in place is one that promotes healthy and supportive community.

[Krotoan]

but it is absolutely indicative of what this community can and will do to people it views as outsiders. This wasn't a handful of people being jerks in DF, it was a large scale concerted effort by a contingent of this community to harass 1 person simply because he's from a different game. Like it or not that kind of thing leaves a mark on this community.

You're being either incredibly uninformed or stubborn if you can say this. It's not indicative of what ANY new player who is not a famous established streamer with a following and persona like Asmongolds will experience. Absolutely none of them.

Whether or not you know or knew who Asmongold was before this, LOTS of people do know who he is and what his content is. He is a prominent WoW player and consistently pits WoW against any game he plays. His persona does things like joking about how FFXIV is full of weebs and "dudes playing catgirls" (which.. is kinda true but people don't like this being framed as a negative thing). He (as his character) makes snap judgements about things people may personally value or be insulted by their trivialization or mockery" "Man.. that mount looks stupid!" . OUTSIDE his actual fans he has a reputation for a toxic (read: oldschool non-PC) community who make crude jokes, mildly sexist references and comments and enjoy antagonistic humor. People LOVE to antagonize streamers. It's entertaining to watch their reactions and it's been commented upon by streamers themselves that the quickest way to making money is to monetize your audience annoying you. Have a stream where you're supposed to be "quiet" or walk around in an area with a lot of strangers and turn on Text To Speech for money or allow embarrassing or obnoxious sounds to be played for money. People will happily keep paying to antagonize the streamer and watch them squirm. It is a huge pull for streamer audiences to annoy the streamer and this was a HUGE chance to do that and be broadcasted on a "famous" channel at the same time.


Exceedingly little of this is "simply because he's from a different game". It is because Asmongold is Asmongold and the entirety of his history, persona, community and circumstance culminate in this kind of thing happening WHEREVER HE GOES. He doesn't deserve it as a person. It's crappy that this is HIS experience, but it's not surprising or unexpected.

EDIT: Please watch this that details some good points about why streaming an MMO as a content creator isn't like playing one as a regular player.
https://youtu.be/2psXI0mJsuA?t=632
Timestamped for relevance to the discussion but the whole video is some good stuff for perspective on what a streamer experiences and is concentrating on VS what a gamer experiences.

I'm not condemning everyone who plays the game, or even saying FFXIV is worse than other games. What I am saying is that this game isn't a bastion or exception to the rules regarding toxic online communities.

And nobody has ever said that FFXIV is the bastion of good players or any sort of exception to the fact that toxic gamers play every single game. What people say is that the experience of playing it , lots of times in comparison to the game they just left or have been playing for a while, is pretty Nice. People seem friendly and helpful and IT SEEMS there's a lot less toxic language and behavior flying round.

You, and many who post similar things to you are arguing against a position next to nobody has.

[Artemiz]

This is all fine, but you have to understand that for a long time this community has been self-promoting the idea that it lacks the toxicity of other similar communities. This community more than pretty much any other gaming community I've ever seen, has been self-anointing it's moral superiority. For this community to then turn around and be the source of a very high-profile display of large scale harassment should be eye-opening.

Some people who came from WoW having a better experience here is nice, but that doesn't make this go away. This was a very blatant, very visible showing of what this community is capable of.

I've been a part of the FF online community for a very long time, I can assure you I am at peace with what it is and understand it.

You seem to be suggesting we needed a wake up call and it still hasn't sunk in yet. I disagree, you won't find it hard to find people disgusted with what we all saw, happy that bans are being issued and hoping the harassment stops, pronto. If you dig hard enough and quote mine enough I'm sure you can find a few people who think it was a good thing, but they do seem to be the minority, and a small one at that.

On the other hand, you don't have to look far to find the players of this game being berated over it, there must be half a dozen threads on it by now and the always witty and hilarious gcbtw meme is getting parroted by many many posters. We get it, people have a point to prove, it didn't need proving but don't worry, you all made the point and everyone heard you.

[Drakonic]

The harassment has mostly subsided by now, so I think the GMs have done a great job in scaring the rest to run away.