Unpopular Opinion: Flare Star should be restricted from Duels

[Liam_Harper]

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

[ACE135]

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

They would probably be okay, if the devs remove the easy mode after they have done the "challenge" and don't have to get through it the intended way anymore.

[HyperiusUltima]

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

This guy gets it when it comes to the NA Community. As long as I've been playing, people always want a fast track and 'easy' method of doing things, from relics to grinds to anything else that they can trivialize - but the original intent of Duels was to make the Duels in Bozja/Zadnor a challenge. A form of 'end game content' that would be difficult. I only posted this thread given that every duel I've seen in Zadnor/Bozja as of recent is Uber Buffed Flare Star and RDM. It gets old quick and makes the fights boring to watch. The only one time I actually enjoyed a run was when I was watching a SAM attempt Hypertuned Dabog in the First Zone of Zadnor.

Flare Star is by far the easiest and most accessible cheese to pull off compared to WAR and Healer Cheese, since you just set and Delete their HP by 80% after a Minute(after applying every buff under the sun), reapply, and watch the rest be deleted while doing mechanics after using an Elixir. All it takes is a RDM/SMN to set up with Ordained and watch the boss burn with just one DoT(or more since you'll be doing damage anyway).

Besides, aren't these supposed to be hard fights? They did say these fights are supposed to be 'mini-Ultimates', no? And we'd need Lost Actions to be able to do them. Mechanics are a fun part about fights in FFXIV mainly because they add a layer of complexity that is enjoyable to many different players and can look cool. Strip it all bare, and it literally becomes a dummy fight. Where's the fun in that?

[Fland]

Besides, aren't these supposed to be hard fights? They did say these fights are supposed to be 'mini-Ultimates', no? And we'd need Lost Actions to be able to do them. Mechanics are a fun part about fights in FFXIV mainly because they add a layer of complexity that is enjoyable to many different players and can look cool. Strip it all bare, and it literally becomes a dummy fight. Where's the fun in that?

I've never heard the Bozja duels being referred to as "mini-ultimates". I'm sorry but that's kinda over-exaggerating.
I mean yeah they're designed to be decently challenging, but not to the point of it being a "mini-ultimates".

[Axxion]

This guy gets it when it comes to the NA Community. As long as I've been playing, people always want a fast track and 'easy' method of doing things, from relics to grinds to anything else that they can trivialize - but the original intent of Duels was to make the Duels in Bozja/Zadnor a challenge. A form of 'end game content' that would be difficult. I only posted this thread given that every duel I've seen in Zadnor/Bozja as of recent is Uber Buffed Flare Star and RDM. It gets old quick and makes the fights boring to watch. The only one time I actually enjoyed a run was when I was watching a SAM attempt Hypertuned Dabog in the First Zone of Zadnor.

Flare Star is by far the easiest and most accessible cheese to pull off compared to WAR and Healer Cheese, since you just set and Delete their HP by 80% after a Minute(after applying every buff under the sun), reapply, and watch the rest be deleted while doing mechanics after using an Elixir. All it takes is a RDM/SMN to set up with Ordained and watch the boss burn with just one DoT(or more since you'll be doing damage anyway).

Besides, aren't these supposed to be hard fights? They did say these fights are supposed to be 'mini-Ultimates', no? And we'd need Lost Actions to be able to do them. Mechanics are a fun part about fights in FFXIV mainly because they add a layer of complexity that is enjoyable to many different players and can look cool. Strip it all bare, and it literally becomes a dummy fight. Where's the fun in that?

when did they say there mini ultimate's. Was this a live letter? Can you please link this information?

[KageTokage]

To be fair, although trying to balance Bozja is a bad idea, there is some point to the argument.

For example if you look at it in reverse, if Flare Star didn't exist and someone posted a thread asking the devs for a Lost Action that could trivialize duels in 40 seconds, they'd be flamed off the forums. It'd be a wall of "lol troll thread" and "challenge is good, git gud". But when people have already been given something that makes content easier, they cling to it and are extremely reluctant to give it up.

This is why game developers make existing content easier far more often than making it more challenging. Once people have a taste of the easy mode, there's uproar if you try to take it from them.

I feel like this accurately sums up the whole pro-Flare Star cheesing mentality in a nutshell.

Heaven forbid people want content that was designed as a challenge to...y'know, actually be a challenge.

And as much as some argue that there's stuff that's "almost as broken as Flare Star", there really isn't. The two biggest sources of damage after that are Bloodrage chaining and insanely loaded WHM openers that combine the bloated Ordained + Chainspell buff with Essence of the Profane to tear off 20-30% of the boss' HP in the first minute or so, but both still require you to actually do at least one cycle of mechanics to finish the duel. An optimized Flare Star can kill all three Zadnor duels in a little over a minute with no need to actually repeat the opener.

[Alaray]

You can trivialize the content without using it. Anyone who says you can't is... more or less just flatly incorrect, or don't really know what they're doing on their job of choice in the arena. Won't be as fast, but will still skip all the mechanics that'd be considered difficult.

Honestly, it's not that big of a problem. If you want the challenge of the fight, don't use it.

It's a solo encounter that essentially has a set up easy mode, and can be as difficult as you want to make it. The only group of people it hurts, in this current iteration, are people who just want a sense of prestige from the earned title and, to be frank, if prestige is something someone is after, then XIV is a pretty bad time investment to find that in.

But, if it's a case of wanting a difficult challenge it can still be that. Just don't cheese it. It's a problem that already has a solution.

[Curisu]

But still, the "easy mode" need a lot of expensive preparations and planning.
It doesn't matter for a decent player to watch a guide for the flare star strat or the normal way. With both ways it can be be killed after the first try. Or it takes 5 because you get something wrong.

[Vyrerus]

there really isn't..

The other methods are just more active. The reason people bring them up is because even if we deleted Lost Flare Star, they would become the go to methods, and they are practically just as effective. Even Lost Flare Star requires you to do mechanics to a point/have the required reflects/damage stopping Lost Actions.

Duels are just gimmick fights where you either know the mechanics and the required lost actions or you don't (and appropriate self sustain if you intend to fight through all mechanics). None of them require more knowledge than that. The only real challenge for duels is meeting the prerequisite to challenge the duel and then beating out everyone else who is after it. It's already established that the reason more people don't have duel titles is because entry requirement is stymied in a waist deep bog.

If they were going to be kept challenging, then they'd implement duels that have different mechanics every time, so that guide videos were harder to make and disseminate the key knowledge for beating the duels. Once you have the key knowledge it just comes down to what you did before, don't get hit by avoidable things and kill the boss as fast as possible.

To be fair

Even before Lost Flare Star existed there were methods to end duels in as little as 80 seconds (some even faster). It just took people a while to realize that they could pre-buff/expend lost actions mid combat for higher kill speeds. The duels were first taken down by people on WHMs/Tanks with deep essences and the proper damage stopping/debuff removing Lost Actions. These people made guides, and so the duels were all beaten "properly." If no Lost Action "cheeses" were attempted and perfected, then we'd have a ton of boring wittle'em down duels where whoever was dueling was either on a healer or one of the tanks with self sustain or any job with mild amounts of self sustain and a lost action holster filled to the brim with potions. All duel mechanics are on a 3 or so minute loop. You go through one whole loop, and that's the whole of the fight you have to contend with. They are not intended to be long and drawn out encounters.

And it's even more telling now, where we can earn the resistance honors, buffing us while in any Save the Queen content. They fully intended for us to break Bozja/Zadnor/Delubnum. If they didn't they would have made Lost Actions work like Mnemes from Eureka, wherein you couldn't really have multiple buffs going if you changed your active actions.

[Deceptus]

I feel like this accurately sums up the whole pro-Flare Star cheesing mentality in a nutshell.

Heaven forbid people want content that was designed as a challenge to...y'know, actually be a challenge.

If you want the challenge. . . simply don't use it? Just like people who want the challenge of minimal ilvl on content. The option is there for you.